Sean

Dota Today 12: Creating a Gestalt with Aaron Ayesee Chambers

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Twig, Zombie Thumb got the point of my post exactly right.

 

If you can't think of any good reason a viewer might prefer to watch DoTA via Twitch or other streaming services, then you're probably not going to understand anything else about non-player spectators, either.

 

I might prefer the convenience.  I might not have or want a Steam account.  I might be watching mainly on mobile devices.  I might want to conserve space on a computer with a small SSD for storage.  I might not want to shell out $10USD for a "tournament pass" to watch the two matches I'm interested in.  I might have a mac that can't be upgraded beyond OSX 10.6, or a have wonky Windows driver, or old or half-broken hardware.  I might not have permission to install the client on the computer I use.  I might, god help me, be fond of the chat on one of the streaming services.  I might have a nutball paranoid belief that "install the client for maximum viewing experience" is a manipulative propaganda message in the service Valve's bottom line.  I might not watch games often enough to feel installing the client is justified.  I might have a weird insecure social circle in which installing the client is considered uncool.  I might simply prefer a stream site for reasons I can't articulate.

 

Any of these would be an absolutely valid reason for some given person, provided that person is otherwise willing to watch the game.  Pick one and pretend it's my reason.

 

If you want to keep non-player spectators away from the game, then a great way to do it is to imply they're doing something wrong when they say they don't want to watch the game the way you think they should watch it.

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To sidestep this a little bit, I'm not sure that having access to ability descriptions would even be all that useful to a player unfamiliar with the game. For some heroes, like Lina it's probably easy enough to understand that she shoots fire at people until they are dead, but how is a non player supposed to understand why OD is good just from reading his spells?

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To sidestep this a little bit, I'm not sure that having access to ability descriptions would even be all that useful to a player unfamiliar with the game. For some heroes, like Lina it's probably easy enough to understand that she shoots fire at people until they are dead, but how is a non player supposed to understand why OD is good just from reading his spells?

I mean if you just look at his orb and his passive, one gives him bonus damage from his mana pool and the other raises his mana pool as well as having a chance to restore mana so he can constantly spam it. His skills have a lot of synergy

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That's true, but that also isn't exactly why he's a strong hero. His primary strength is that he wins lanes, especially solo lanes. The spamable orb is part of that, but so is his prison, which can prevent an opponent from getting a last hit, or make them lose mana, or save you from a gank. And more importantly, a non player probably doesn't understand what "winning a lane" means, or how that factors in to the game at large.

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I am quite surprised that there are so many people here saying they watch pro Dota without playing it, I'd be interested to hear what it was like getting into it / why you stuck with it until you had a better grasp on what was happening. I have almost 200 hours played on Steam now and I still feel like I don't really have much of a clue what is going on when I watch pro games, especially when they involve lords I've not played with myself (which at this stage is still like 3/4 of the total pool). The experience I go back to is American Football, as I started watching that about 5 years ago with pretty much zero clue about even the basic rules of the game, and even then I felt like I could at least follow the bigger moments and the general flow of the game even if the smaller intricacies were lost on me. Conversely with Dota, the big teamfights that often end up being the pivotal moments in games are among the most complex and chaotic to watch. One thing I think that would definitely help new viewers would be slow motion replays of these key moments so that the commentators can go back and individually point out the various moving parts and why they were important, which for me seems to get lost in the excitement and confusion.

 

Having watched a few more pro games I have definitely come around on some of the points that were made earlier though, namely that differences in Dota broadcasts from broadcasts of other sports aren't necessarily a bad thing. All sports have their unique foibles that often provide a link back to their early grassroots development, and I think things like player nicknames in Dota and the more relaxed announcing style are great examples of that. I know Ayesee mentioned that he tries to avoid swearing due to his professional broadcasting background, but as long as it's not excessive not having that restriction can actually add something to the experience; I was watching a TI4 qualifier that Ayesee was actually casting I believe, and one player did an especially sick Rubick play (that even after playing back a few times I didn't fully understand what had happened, but oh well), but the co-commentators reaction was something along the lines of "holy fucking shit". Given that they hadn't been swearing constantly during the rest of the game, it drove home the genuine surprise and excitement that people who watch this stuff for a living can still have from just seeing a great play, and that's infectious. Certainly better than Joe Buck commentating the crucial play of the Super Bowl like he's reading a telesales script.

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Twig, Zombie Thumb got the point of my post exactly right.

If you can't think of any good reason a viewer might prefer to watch DoTA via Twitch or other streaming services

I can think of plenty of reasons. I wanted to know what yours were. Next time, I'd appreciate you answering the question without being a smarmy jerk. Thank you.

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I meant analysis during a game, but thank you. I know enough to ask some questions. I have general knowledge about some things and I'm familiar with multiple forms of managing lords in general. I need specifics, which is not to say you have not provided useful information, but more to say that my competition watching brain demands them. I'm a member of SABR (well, was until I let my dues lapse), I watch All-22 film of football games, I know where to look up my hockey team's Fenwick scores, Kevin Durant was a deserving winner of the MVP award because he led the league in PER. I want my casters to go into strategic depth, because the basic tactics and strategy get absorbed easily.

 

I like numbers'n stuff.

 

This is so not the point of your post, but PER is a really terrible way to measure how good a player is.  First, it barely takes into account defense (supposedly fouls are a slight indirect indicator of defense).  Second, it reward players who iniate the offense and shoot a lot (e.g. Kevin Durant's numbers are inflated because he shot more than anyone in the league).  Lastly and most importantly, PER has no predictive value.  That is, PER doesn't equate to wins very well.  That is probably the best test of any new advanced metric and PER fails at it.

 

Anyway, I like numbers too, but I don't want that from my sports casters.  To me the excitement of sports or other live competitions is the feeling that anything can happen in the moment.  So, I want the announcers to describe what is happening with as much clarity as possible, and then to get excited when something important happens.  Just normal sport, I want a play-by-play caller like Ayesee (who is really good at this) and a color commentator/analyst.  I don't want a stats guy calling the guy.  I love reading those write-ups afterwards, but to me it cheapens the excitement of the moment and makes it more difficult to enjoy casually.

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Since multiple commentary streams are so easy in the spectating client, I'd love to get a stream dedicated for entry-level watchers. I too have trouble following all the actions, and wouldn't mind listening to a dumbed-down stream as an alternative.

While it isn't quite what you're looking for, check out Purge and Merlini's YouTube channels. They have tons of vods where they go over tge basics, usually focusing on a single hero.

Purge's Welcome to Dota, you suck is also invaluable for new viewers and players.

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Beyondthesummit has lots of stats but they're in a side pop up and are sometimes not even mentioned by the casters.

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This is so not the point of your post, but PER is a really terrible way to measure how good a player is.  First, it barely takes into account defense (supposedly fouls are a slight indirect indicator of defense).  Second, it reward players who iniate the offense and shoot a lot (e.g. Kevin Durant's numbers are inflated because he shot more than anyone in the league).  Lastly and most importantly, PER has no predictive value.  That is, PER doesn't equate to wins very well.  That is probably the best test of any new advanced metric and PER fails at it.

 

Anyway, I like numbers too, but I don't want that from my sports casters.  To me the excitement of sports or other live competitions is the feeling that anything can happen in the moment.  So, I want the announcers to describe what is happening with as much clarity as possible, and then to get excited when something important happens.  Just normal sport, I want a play-by-play caller like Ayesee (who is really good at this) and a color commentator/analyst.  I don't want a stats guy calling the guy.  I love reading those write-ups afterwards, but to me it cheapens the excitement of the moment and makes it more difficult to enjoy casually.

 

 

I actually know that about PER, but it was the basketballing stat I grabbed for. :)

 

I want that to be the color commentator's job. I find that across all competitions guys that do color are just SO BAD, and my preferred color commentary is heavy on analysis. It doesn't have to be stat focused but it should be stat driven. I don't give a fuck about heart and grit and wanting it more, I want to know why positioning and strategy win games. Even if a deciding teamfight is just because one dude is SO FED, there are interesting and relevant reasons in the previous 30 odd minutes that got him there.

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But that's not really a colour commentator is it?

Most color commentators are trying to humanize the event or make it exciting.  There are very few heavey on analysis.  In my opinion, it's because sports (and e-sports as well) are pretty unintelligible if you don't know all the rules.  However, if someone can give you the human and emotional weight to the event than anyone can enjoy it.  I mean could you imagine tuning into a Dota2 match for the first time and being hit with  a bunch of accronyms, play calls, and stats?  It would be totally unintelligible trying to understanding the basics of the game is hard much less the statistical analysis.  The best thing about Ayesee is that he gets this and is obviously doing things to make the game more watchable for people like me who watched my first pro game (that he called) fter playing 2 or 3 games.  It's amazing how thrilling it was and how well he made me feel like I knew what was happening.

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