TychoCelchuuu

David Lynch's Josh Brolin's Campo Santo's Fire Watch With Me: A Motion Picture Event

Recommended Posts

I'm watching the stream and the game looks awesome. Great work guys, I'm super excited to play it. Questions/comments:

 

Are those gorgeous backgrounds off in the distance actual geometry or are they concept art painted onto a skybox? I'm assuming it's the latter, but if it's the former: wow.

 

I have it on good authority that Rich Sommer is a Cool Dude. Some friends of mine played board games with him when he visited a cafe I used to work at. It's cool that he's working on this.

 

The stuff where you can talk to Delilah about various objects looks really interesting, and the traversal stuff sounds really cool. I'm trying not to set my expectations too high with the comparisons to Metroid and Batman, but a non-combat version of that style of game appeals to me greatly.

 

One annoying thing: you know that stomping out a fire would in no way prevent it from being a forest fire hazard, right? There would still be hot embers - some of which were probably knocked into the grass from your stomping - and everything would still be really hot. To properly put out a fire you need to soak it in water until the coals are literally swimming and everything is coll enough to touch with your bare hands. I know that simply stomping it out makes sense from a production standpoint and a character standpoint - Henry's in a hurry and new at this, after all. But it still irks me unreasonably.

 

Anyway, keep up the awesome work. Ambiguous 2015 release date can't come soon enough!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm super glad, tberton, that I'm not the only person who's real nitpicky about the game. I have a feeling it would be the MOST DIFFICULT THING to make a game, considering you're trying to please so many people who can examine every frame of your game and find things that might be "wrong." I was glad to hear, from Jake, this afternoon, that the repeated star pattern in the game is probably going to change, but I have a feeling that the stomping the campfire out might be a harder thing to change (soaking the campfire in water! Checking to see the temperature of the embers!). I do like your explanation (Henry is new at this), but I'd bet that our little complaints (from ~5 minutes of footage) is just the tip of the iceberg for game designers trying to tackle a "real" concept, like Firewatch does. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well, I'm going to be that other guy. Why do you ask? For the record I have no idea either. Well, I have an idea that he is white, I suppose.

 

I ask mainly because as the folks (and others) have said countless times before there should be more diversity in the industry. If the main character is in fact white it just seems like there really isn't any change. Some could even go as far and say that it's all talk but no action. If the character you play as is a white, straight, male and the story revolves around that then thats fine but I don't see how it would hurt make them pacific islander, or asian, or african-american or any other race/ethnicity that ins't just white. I'm not trying to say "look at these hypocrites" but I just felt maybe I would be able to play someone other than a straight, white, dude, as that's usually what I try to do with games these days, specifically more story driven ones. And honestly thats probably my own fault. I kind of just wanted to know if the main character is white, why is that?

 

That is not to say that I'm not interested in the game and unwilling to play it. I get its a small team and all and it is their first game as this studio  I guess I just expected a little bit more from the Thumbs. And again thats probably my own fault.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

As the guy who made Henry's character model I can confirm he's a white guy. 

 

Although as his often mentioned Wreck It Ralph hands might indicate (I actually used those as reference), he's not your classic bald ubermensch cisprotag. 

 

edit: Also, hello thumbs forums! Just realized this is my first post. :o

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

""These hypocrites"" made Lee and Clem... not that this clears them from ever having to think about race again, but to imply they're abdicating responsibility is kinda prt.

 

:fart: :fart: :fart: :fart: :fart:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I ask mainly because as the folks (and others) have said countless times before there should be more diversity in the industry. If the main character is in fact white it just seems like there really isn't any change. Some could even go as far and say that it's all talk but no action. If the character you play as is a white, straight, male and the story revolves around that then thats fine but I don't see how it would hurt make them pacific islander, or asian, or african-american or any other race/ethnicity that ins't just white. I'm not trying to say "look at these hypocrites" but I just felt maybe I would be able to play someone other than a straight, white, dude, as that's usually what I try to do with games these days, specifically more story driven ones. And honestly thats probably my own fault. I kind of just wanted to know if the main character is white, why is that?

 

That is not to say that I'm not interested in the game and unwilling to play it. I get its a small team and all and it is their first game as this studio  I guess I just expected a little bit more from the Thumbs. And again thats probably my own fault.

 

Well, to paraphrase Sean on a recent episode, if a creator makes a decision then then that decision was important. I think if you ask him directly you have a good chance of getting an answer ([email protected]).

 

Looking around the net I see that Wisconsin is 86-88% white. Just as an anecdote, I know a lot of non-whites who go camping and hiking, but people who work in nature preservation are overwhelmingly white in my experience.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Looking around the net I see that Wisconsin is 86-88% white. Just as an anecdote, I know a lot of non-whites who go camping and hiking, but people who work in nature preservation are overwhelmingly white in my experience.

 

I'm not upset about Henry being a white guy, but this sentiment is totally a microcosm of the discussion toward the end of the episode 173 thread about how it was more "historically accurate" for certain games not to have women in them, etc.

 

Don't be that guy.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

How do you know that Delilah isn't an african american disabled transwoman?

I'm not telling

It's ok. We already know she's a ghost.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm not upset about Henry being a white guy, but this sentiment is totally a microcosm of the discussion toward the end of the episode 173 thread about how it was more "historically accurate" for certain games not to have women in them, etc.

 

Don't be that guy.

 

Could you please elaborate? Reading a 17 page thread authored by dozens is probably a bad way for me to figure out what you're saying.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Could you please elaborate? Reading a 17 page thread authored by dozens is probably a bad way for me to figure out what you're saying.

 

I have read that thread and I'm not 100% on what tegan means, BUT just from context, I'm a guess she means pulling out actual racial composition % is maybe important if your game is some kind of documentary game, but equally pretty irrelevant when you're dealing with a work of fiction. The racial mix doesn't reflect the numbers for that occupation/geographic area? Guess what, that beer brand and whiskey brand are also made up. OMIGOSH.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm not upset about Henry being a white guy, but this sentiment is totally a microcosm of the discussion toward the end of the episode 173 thread about how it was more "historically accurate" for certain games not to have women in them, etc.

 

Don't be that guy.

 

That was in relation to fantasy settings that use history at set-dressing, picking & choosing which particular elements of history they want to use in their version, but always 'coincidentally' picking the elements that happen to be sexist or where white people are the most powerful. If we are talking about a setting that is supposed to be the literal real world, then I don't think that's an appropriate argument to use. The 'this is how it actually is' argument is perfectly valid in the context of a story set in the real world.

You might use a different argument, like 88% is not 100% and that's still plenty of room for a minority protagonist.

However, I don't think that developers should be expected to write minority protagonists for every single game until the representation problem is completely solved (this point is not directed at you, tegan), that seems like a naive understanding of the underlying problem & the plausible potential solutions to it.

It's a problem if that's all a particular dev ever does, but I think it's obvious that's not the case here.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

That was in relation to fantasy settings that use history at set-dressing, picking & choosing which particular elements of history they want to use in their version, but always 'coincidentally' picking the elements that happen to be sexist or where white people are the most powerful. If we are talking about a setting that is supposed to be the literal real world, then I don't think that's an appropriate argument to use. The 'this is how it actually is' argument is perfectly valid in the context of a story set in the real world.

You might use a different argument, like 88% is not 100% and that's still plenty of room for a minority protagonist.

However, I don't think that developers should be expected to write minority protagonists for every single game until the representation problem is completely solved (this point is not directed at you, tegan), that seems like a naive understanding of the underlying problem & the plausible potential solutions to it.

It's a problem if that's all a particular dev ever does, but I think it's obvious that's not the case here.

 

I think Tegan's argument might just be that using (often assumed and/or anecdotal) demographic data from real life to justify a narrative decision in fiction is pointless. Narrative decisions need narrative justifications, otherwise it's just lazy writing.

 

Note that this does not preclude there being an excellent narrative justification for Henry being the race and socioeconomic class and occupation and whatever that he is. In fact, it's very likely that smart people like Sean and Jake and Chris have done just that several times over already. But it'd be silly for them (or anyone) to say, "Eighty-eight percent of hikers in the Pacific Northwest from 1991 to 2004 were white, therefore our protagonist ought to be white." Not that anyone said that, either.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Are those gorgeous backgrounds off in the distance actual geometry or are they concept art painted onto a skybox? I'm assuming it's the latter, but if it's the former: wow.

 

I'm a Skyrim nut, and when i saw those peaks and their artistic excellence in the trailer i went a little light-headed.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I guess that my comment came off as an argument as to what is in the realm of plausibility for the game.

 

Someone expressed disappointment (I hope that's a fair way to put it) that the main character appears to be white. I was just trying to say, if he is white, that makes sense to me. Not, he must be white and here is the evidence, just, if he is indeed white, I wouldn't be surprised. I hope that distinction is clear. 

 

Just so people have a better idea of where I'm coming from:

 

Sean has said this is a story about the place where he grew up. I think Wisconsin's demographics are important to its identity, certainly more so than alcohol brand names and logos.

 

Regarding occupations, I live in one of the most multicultural places in the world, and still certain occupations are dominated by certain racial groups. When I'm told the game is set in Wisconsin in the early 90s and features a fire lookout, that brings a whole lot of baggage. I admitted up front that I was speaking anecdotally, not as a get-of-jail-free-card, but just as a way to impart that this was my personal read on the situation, based on my life experiences. It was in the spirit of casual speculation, nothing more.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Henry should obviously be 88% white.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think telling a story about a particular person who is a white male is not the same thing as using a white male as a blank template for the individual player. You can create a great deal of specificity if you approach the player character as a white male when deciding how that person could or should react to things instead of using that as a blank slate for the variable player to try to put themselves into. It's the difference between writing a character and writing a cipher, and I trust the campo santo folks to carry that through. 
Also, the majority of the team is white, and I think all of the writing people are? It's not wrong to write what you know instead of reaching too far in a specific context you can't personally understand. I'd rather someone hit a really resonant tone than try too hard to create an experience they don't personally know and have it come off discordant. 

Also, sometimes I feel like this is a far more intense version of the Tom Francis experience. Instead of reading reviews and then following a more detailed game development, we've (the readers) listened to hundreds of hours of a number of the camp santo people talking about their views on games and the industry as a whole, and then recently following a more closed development while having all that baggage of the podcast. Making a good product that has a chance to succeed in the insane video games market as a fledgling studio is, I'm sure, really fucking hard. I don't think we should begrudge anyone for playing to any of their strengths in that pursuit. I want campo santo to make lots of games on lots of subjects, and I think part of that is putting your best, strongest foot forward first. 

(I'm also sort of drunk. I mean what I say but still. Drunk phrasing and such. Very emotional.)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I ask mainly because as the folks (and others) have said countless times before there should be more diversity in the industry. If the main character is in fact white it just seems like there really isn't any change. Some could even go as far and say that it's all talk but no action. If the character you play as is a white, straight, male and the story revolves around that then thats fine but I don't see how it would hurt make them pacific islander, or asian, or african-american or any other race/ethnicity that ins't just white. I'm not trying to say "look at these hypocrites" but I just felt maybe I would be able to play someone other than a straight, white, dude, as that's usually what I try to do with games these days, specifically more story driven ones. And honestly thats probably my own fault. I kind of just wanted to know if the main character is white, why is that?

 

That is not to say that I'm not interested in the game and unwilling to play it. I get its a small team and all and it is their first game as this studio  I guess I just expected a little bit more from the Thumbs. And again thats probably my own fault.

 

I think it's a fair question to be raised, and one that doesn't need to be justified. If the main character is a straight white male because of narrative reasons, that's fair but not beyond reproach. If the main character is a straight white male because the writers are straight white males and they thoughtlessly defaulted to that, that's a damn shame and they deserve to be criticized for it. Having heard them talk about representation, I doubt that it's something that they haven't discussed or that they don't have internal justifications for. I wouldn't go passing judgment on something we know so little about, but it's a good question to ask.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

My point was supposed to be about how it's kind of gross to try to retroactively bring up justifications for a decision that in nearly all cases has nothing to do with choosing the best option for the narrative and is instead just a Thing That You Do Because It's Always Like That. I'm not accusing Campo Santo of doing that (CS is one of the only studios that I can imagine actually having internal discussion about Henry being a straight white man), but it reeks of the worst sort of excuses that gamers and developers come up with.

 

"Female assassins were too hard to model."

 

"We didn't want to make a new physics model for Peach's skirt."

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

What are we even talking about.

 

It's not like they picked the default five-oclock-shadow dudebro in his thirties voiced by Nolan North (no offense Nolan) as the protagonist, or made him male because they didn't know how to model a female. They could have just as easily chosen Delilah, but I imagine they wanted to tell a story about a mopey middle-aged loner forest ranger guy. And that is exactly the sort of person I would expect in a story about a fire lookout in Wyoming. If he was of another race for the sake of being diverse, it would probably break my suspension of disbelief. His race or whatever shouldn't be dictated a meta issue with games at large for the sake of 'not doing what everyone else is doing', it should be dictated by the story.

 

Just because this studio's first game isn't immediately groundbreakingly diverse doesn't mean they're frauds. And all we've seen so far is a short demo, it's not fair to judge the whole thing based on that.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Teg, I don't think anyone's accusing you of making an unreasonable argument. It seems like Hedgefield was responding more to the original point than to you.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

Although as his often mentioned Wreck It Ralph hands might indicate (I actually used those as reference), he's not your classic bald ubermensch cisprotag. 

 

Solved:

  1. Wreck-It Ralph is essentially Mario.
  2. Mario was inspired by Popeye.
  3. Popeye was based on Frank Fiegel, a resident of Chester, Illinois.
  4. "Rocky Fiegel was of Polish descent and lived with his mother in a house near the Evergreen Cemetery." (excerpted from Popeye: An Illustrated Cultural History by Fred M. Grandinetti)

Ghost confirmed. Thanks Fingus!

 

edit: oh boy, this thread moved fast in the last 20 minutes and now I am a terrible person

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now