Bioshock Finite: Irrational Games shuts down

[Aaronofthe]

Two lines from that gamasutra article: "I really loved bioshock" and "Infinite is awful".

 

If I had to live Ken Levine's life for the span of time between those two lines with all of the pressure, responsibility, and day to day bullshit of just being human that that entails.. and then come on to this or any other forum or gaming news site that's talking about everything that they suspect he did wrong and just what a generally shitty person he was when I didn't want that pressure and responsibility anymore..

why, I think I'd feel really horrible. I'd probably walk away from games all together. Maybe become a receptionist somewhere or something. He probably doesn't, so that's good. But me, that shit would drive me crazy.

 

But you guys.. you guys have got it all figured out. You guys probably would have produced a game under budget, under time, that would have been the "empire strikes back" to irrational's bioshock.

Props. Mad props for your wisdom and the successes it's brought and will continue to bring you. You are certainly all better men and women than I. It's kind of inspiring.

[feelthedarkness]

You can't create something worthwhile without accepting that a critical assessment goes along with that. 

 

Also, have you never had a bad boss? They're real things people have to deal with, sometimes for years at a time!

 

Though, part of me wonders if Levine didn't also get stuck, contractually to 2K, like if securing funding to finish BI meant promising them another game. 

[Golden Calf]

But you guys.. you guys have got it all figured out. You guys probably would have produced a game under budget, under time, that would have been the "empire strikes back" to irrational's bioshock.

Props. Mad props for your wisdom and the successes it's brought and will continue to bring you. You are certainly all better men and women than I. It's kind of inspiring.

 

The fact that he, the head of a major developer, was under a lot of stress seems like a pretty poor defense against accusations that he treated employees poorly during development or in the shutdown.

 

I guess I should never criticize any public figure, politician, whatever who happens to have a stressful job?

 

http://gawker.com/on-smarm-1476594977

[eot]

But you guys.. you guys have got it all figured out. You guys probably would have produced a game under budget, under time, that would have been the "empire strikes back" to irrational's bioshock.

Props. Mad props for your wisdom and the successes it's brought and will continue to bring you. You are certainly all better men and women than I. It's kind of inspiring.

Save your sympathies for the 200 newly unemployed I say.

[Justin Leego]

Though, part of me wonders if Levine didn't also get stuck, contractually to 2K, like if securing funding to finish BI meant promising them another game. 

 

Yeah I was wondering about this too, whether contractual or not, agreed during Infinite's development or something that came about post-release as a result of discussions about sales and the studio's future.

[Zeusthecat]

Two lines from that gamasutra article: "I really loved bioshock" and "Infinite is awful".

 

If I had to live Ken Levine's life for the span of time between those two lines with all of the pressure, responsibility, and day to day bullshit of just being human that that entails.. and then come on to this or any other forum or gaming news site that's talking about everything that they suspect he did wrong and just what a generally shitty person he was when I didn't want that pressure and responsibility anymore..

why, I think I'd feel really horrible. I'd probably walk away from games all together. Maybe become a receptionist somewhere or something. He probably doesn't, so that's good. But me, that shit would drive me crazy.

 

But you guys.. you guys have got it all figured out. You guys probably would have produced a game under budget, under time, that would have been the "empire strikes back" to irrational's bioshock.

Props. Mad props for your wisdom and the successes it's brought and will continue to bring you. You are certainly all better men and women than I. It's kind of inspiring.

Boo fucking hoo. Do you actually have anything useful to contribute?

[TychoCelchuuu]

But you guys.. you guys have got it all figured out. You guys probably would have produced a game under budget, under time, that would have been the "empire strikes back" to irrational's bioshock.

Props. Mad props for your wisdom and the successes it's brought and will continue to bring you. You are certainly all better men and women than I. It's kind of inspiring.

I could probably have managed to make it less racist, at least. I feel like I could handle that.

[Aaronofthe]

Useful? err.. useful to what end? I'm not particularly good at tearing down public figures.

 

I appologize. That last post was a snarky way to voice my opinion, I was aware of that as I was writing and that was semi-confrontational for confrontation's sake and I probably should have censored my self as soon as I realized that.

 

The point I meant to make was this:

You are all arm-chair critics. It's difficult to be human in any circumstance let alone as a public figure responsible for the livelihoods of a large number of people and none of you will ever know what it's like to be in that position. You are dehumanizing him because you can and that's kind of shitty.

 

If that doesn't make sense to you, than I'm certainly not capable of explaining it.. and well - oh well.

As you were.

 

As for the racism thing - I don't know what you're talking about. I thought that addressing racism (in infinite) as an american pasttime in an industry full of 'kill the towl-head' was nothing short of game-changing. As time goes by, I feel more and more like I was probably wrong. At any rate - I'm sure your argument makes sense to you, as I saw it earlier in the thread, so.. sure. Keep on keeping on.

 

meh.

[Merus]

Delighted to see a) the quick identification of smarm in that response and  the ruthless undercutting by everyone else. You guys!

 

You are all arm-chair critics. It's difficult to be human in any circumstance let alone as a public figure responsible for the livelihoods of a large number of people and none of you will ever know what it's like to be in that position. You are dehumanizing him because you can and that's kind of shitty.

 

This is basically the 'you can't criticize a movie until you've made a movie' argument and that is a shitty argument. (It is also smarmy, not snarky; it is trying to shut down responses, instead of inciting them.) Levine is paid a great deal of money to manage the livelihood of a large number of people, and it's perfectly reasonable to expect that he should be able to meet the standard he presents himself as meeting; if he couldn't meet that standard, he should have vacated his position for someone who could. Look at the Irrational Interviews, with such luminary creatives as Zack Snyder. The signs were there that he wasn't as capable and thoughtful as we were told. 

 

It's offensive that someone would come along and misdirect from the damage done to hundreds of people's careers because Ken Levine was full of shit by claiming that we are not entitled to our opinions after all, although you sure as shit think you're entitled to yours. The reason you can't articulate your actual opinions is because when they're stated in plain language they're clearly bullshit. Go on. Prove me wrong.

 

[Jake]

Levine aggressively retweeting every irrational job related post makes me feel bad for everyone involved. I hate it.

[Twig]

Yeah! Fuck Ken Levine!

 

 

 

 

 

 

I'm still incredibly conflicted on the whole thing. It is just a shitty situation all around, regardless of ulterior motives, so I guess we can all take solace in feeling shitty about the shitty situation.

[Gormongous]

The point I meant to make was this:

You are all arm-chair critics. It's difficult to be human in any circumstance let alone as a public figure responsible for the livelihoods of a large number of people and none of you will ever know what it's like to be in that position. You are dehumanizing him because you can and that's kind of shitty.

If that doesn't make sense to you, than I'm certainly not capable of explaining it.. and well - oh well.

As you were.

You're right, I don't know how it feels to be Ken Levine. What I do know is how it feels to be laid off because my boss was bad at his job. I know how it feels for me to lose my job and for him to keep his.

So yeah, I'm predisposed more toward one kind of sympathy than another. I'm sure Levine has it hard, yeah, but how is this not a consequence of every decision he's made up until now and hence his own doing? Why are we not qualified to say that, unfortunate though it may be?

[Twig]

You're right, I don't know how it feels to be Ken Levine. What I do know is how it feels to be laid off because my boss was bad at his job. I know how it feels for me to lose my job and for him to keep his.

That's basically why I got laid off, too, but I still don't think it's fair to assume Levine is The Reason This Has Happened. Not to say that he's innocent, because the likelihood of him having made no contribution to this current situation is basically zero, but that also doesn't mean it's guaranteed that he is The Reason This Has Happened.

 

Unless I missed a post somewhere with some behind-the-scenes information, in which case what I just said could be null and void.

[Forbin]

Useful? err.. useful to what end? I'm not particularly good at tearing down public figures.

 

I appologize. That last post was a snarky way to voice my opinion, I was aware of that as I was writing and that was semi-confrontational for confrontation's sake and I probably should have censored my self as soon as I realized that.

 

The point I meant to make was this:

You are all arm-chair critics. It's difficult to be human in any circumstance let alone as a public figure responsible for the livelihoods of a large number of people and none of you will ever know what it's like to be in that position. You are dehumanizing him because you can and that's kind of shitty.

 

I feel like you're either projecting arguments from other places, or seeing something I'm not in the tone of the posts here.

[mikemariano]

Levine aggressively retweeting every irrational job related post makes me feel bad for everyone involved. I hate it.

 

This really made me uncomfortable, too.  It makes a huge show of concern about his former staff without really doing anything concrete.

[Reyturner]

Why should anyone feel bad for Levine? He's spent the last decade making exactly the games he wanted with other people's money. And he still gets to do that. By his own words, Irrational Games is "winding down" specifically so he can keep doing that in the way that pleases him best.

[Aaronofthe]

'you can't criticize a movie until you've made a movie' argument and that is a shitty argument.

 

Can't really say anything to that as I just disagree. I don't think it's a shitty argument. I go into a movie and listen to what the film makers had to say. I agree or I don't. I like it or I don't. It takes a ridiculous amount of work to make anything and my tastes don't determine the quality of the product of that work.

 

 The reason you can't articulate your actual opinions is because when they're stated in plain language they're clearly bullshit. Go on. Prove me wrong.

 

I literally have no idea what the f**k you're talking about. I've articulated my opinions the best I can, if you don't get it, you don't get it. Oh well. I don't know what your point is and don't care enough to prove you wrong.

 

What I do know is how it feels to be laid off because my boss was bad at his job. I know how it feels for me to lose my job and for him to keep his.

 

I literally went through this exact same thing 3 weeks ago.  And I won't lie - Half of me thinks "What an incompetant twat" every day.. half of me thinks "Well she's had this life in these circumstance so.. of course she doesn't know what to do with me."

 

but how is this not a consequence of every decision he's made up until now and hence his own doing?

 

This is sort of my point - name me every decision you've made in the last seven years. We do the best we can. Shit happens.

 

Meh. Anyway - I'm totally not going to get sucked into replying to every post..

That's all I've got. Life's a bitch for the laid off employs and for the dude that has to fire them. We do the best we can. I'm not above either of them. I don't think anyone else should be either. It's f**kin' HARD to be alive. The end.

[TheLastBaron]

Yeah! Fuck Ken Levine!

 

 

 

 

 

 

I'm still incredibly conflicted on the whole thing. It is just a shitty situation all around, regardless of ulterior motives, so I guess we can all take solace in feeling shitty about the shitty situation.

 

Yeah I feel really weird about this, though a large part of me doesn't really have any reaction to this that's any different than any other time there are massive layoffs at other studios.  I don't really have any sort of opinion about Ken Levine specifically because all I can tell is that something is going on/happened that I don't know about, and all I have to judge him off of is hearing him on podcasts like 3MA and Gamers with Jobs (where he's always seems like a nice guy) along with the posts here that he sucks to work with and might be a terrible project lead, as well his games which I all think are very good (System Shock 2 is one of my all time favorite games). 

 

So basically I agree completely about feeling shitty about a shitty situation.

[TychoCelchuuu]

As for the racism thing - I don't know what you're talking about. I thought that addressing racism (in infinite) as an american pasttime in an industry full of 'kill the towl-head' was nothing short of game-changing. As time goes by, I feel more and more like I was probably wrong. At any rate - I'm sure your argument makes sense to you, as I saw it earlier in the thread, so.. sure. Keep on keeping on.

 

meh.

I don't think the best way to "address racism" is to make a game where the black people take over and kill innocent men, women, and children and turn on their former ally while dressed up in stereotypical "savage" costumes. If that's what "addressing racism" looks like I'd rather Ken Levine go back to addressing Objectivism.

[Frenetic Pony]

I don't think the best way to "address racism" is to make a game where the black people take over and kill innocent men, women, and children and turn on their former ally while dressed up in stereotypical "savage" costumes. If that's what "addressing racism" looks like I'd rather Ken Levine go back to addressing Objectivism.

 

Oh come off it. It was about class warfare being pointless because everyone does that same thing because we're all human. Suddenly now it's racist because it's fun to be righteously superior to someone else. I suppose all the Irish were thrown in there because they're black too.

 

Blacks vs the whites eh? And what side are the Vietnamese going to be on?

 

The blacks, obviously.

 

Oh fuck that then, I'm definitely fighting with the blacks.

 

Regardless of fascile racist accusations all of a sudden, I enjoyed Bioshock Infinite well enough, and miss a studio that can produce truly wonderous and beautiful settings that aren't just a rehash of classic sci-fi tropes or an extremely grey and brown modern day setting. 

[aperson]

I appologize. That last post was a snarky way to voice my opinion, I was aware of that as I was writing and that was semi-confrontational for confrontation's sake and I probably should have censored my self as soon as I realized that.

 

 

You shouldn't apologize. The last couple pages of this thread are gross and you're right to call it out.

 

"Yeah I feel really weird about this, though a large part of me doesn't really have any reaction to this that's any different than any other time there are massive layoffs at other studios."

 

My entire team except for my boss was laid off. Fuck that incompetent idiot!

 

Oh wait, my boss felt really bad that we were laid off, is a friend of mine, and we now own a business together. We also regularly meet up with our ex-coworkers for drinks.

 

It sucks when people are laid off. I don't see how that's an excuse to lay into someone with a mix of vitriol and ignorance. Managing a project is hard. If Ken Levine is an incompetent piece of shit what about Tim Shafer? DFA isn't exactly well-managed. It took Idle Thumbs forever to send Kickstarter backer items and some people are having problems / still waiting. Are they incompetent morons also? Valve takes forever to make games - also worthless pieces of shit? If Valve goes out of business next week can I point back to the interview where he said he played DOTA for 1000 hours and say "the warning signs were there! The lazy piece of shit was a terrible manager who just played DOTA all day!"

 

There's not a lot of evidence that Ken Levine is a terrible person or an ineffective manager, other than that his business eventually failed - like most businesses. There are a few mostly anonymous rumors and some "I heard on Twitter that someone heard that Ken Levine is kind of a dick" bullshit. Someone laughably called that Gamasutra piece "direct evidence."

 

If a project is having development issues there are going to be people who grumble. They may be completely justified from their perspective, but that doesn't mean their perspective is the one true one. Maybe your boss isn't paying attention to the game and that reads as negligence, when in reality the reason they aren't paying attention to the game is that they're busy lobbying the parent company for more budget so you can stay employed. At a large company there are going to be people who left due to personality conflicts with nasty things to say about some ex-coworkers, or just disagreeable people who like to stir up shit. People who were slowly frozen out because they were incompetent or lazy.

 

 

When I was laid off I don't see how "your former boss is a fat cat idiot!" would have helped me. There is this weird thing these days where people act like petty, ignorant asses but that's somehow ok because they dress it up as liberalism or concern for their fellow man or fighting for the proletariat or something.

 

People were laid off. How you go from that straight to "Ken Levine is a racist idiot and I have proof that I mysteriously can't share" is beyond me.

[Gormongous]

"Yeah I feel really weird about this, though a large part of me doesn't really have any reaction to this that's any different than any other time there are massive layoffs at other studios."

 

Can I just speak to this for now? The reason this is getting more comment than other layoffs, besides just culture fatigue, is that it was announced by Levine himself as "I want to 'refocus my energy' with something different, something smaller, which I wish didn't mean layoffs, but it does." It's a very peculiar place to put himself if he's just the victim of circumstance. I mean, maybe part of his agreement with Take Two was that he'd take credit/blame for the layoffs in exchange for the new arrangement, but man, to be a fly on the wall in that meeting.

 

I also really don't appreciate the way that you caricature what people you disagree with are saying in every post you've made so far on this forum. It's a cheap way to make you seem more reasonable in comparison, which you shouldn't need if you really are the voice of reason here.

[Twig]

Yeah I actually mostly agree with you on this, aperson, but your attitude makes me want to disagree. Chill out. Have a good time!

 

 

 

ehehe get it guys cause i'm always the calm voice of reason

[chummer]

Oh come off it. It was about class warfare being pointless because everyone does that same thing because we're all human. Suddenly now it's racist because it's fun to be righteously superior to someone else. I suppose all the Irish were thrown in there because they're black too.

 

Regardless of fascile racist accusations all of a sudden...

 

lol wut ?

[Zeusthecat]

So aperson, should all people in a position of power be off limits when it comes to criticism? Who is it okay to criticize? I suppose you also find it sick when people call Obama an idiot or when they get furious at congress because they're all trying so hard and all have our best interests in mind right?