Loadout: Am I the only one seeing this? [NSFW]

[Merus]

Man, I'm assuming a lot of us are white here, and I don't really think we gotta lot of business deciding what is and isn't a stereotype used to demean and demonise African-Americans or whether African-Americans would respond to that as a reflection of them.

[Nachimir]

You're not the only one seeing it prettyunsmart. I very much doubt it's intentional, but it's it's a pretty shitty image they're propagating in general.

 

Hey, everyone: You know how many long-dead people sound like bigoted idiots when quoted uttering commonplace opinions from their time? It's highly probable that's what many of our words will also sound like in a century or two. As dium said, no harm in making the world a better place eh?

[CaptainFish]

Man, I'm assuming a lot of us are white here, and I don't really think we gotta lot of business deciding what is and isn't a stereotype used to demean and demonise African-Americans or whether African-Americans would respond to that as a reflection of them.

 

As a black guy, I didn't mind T-Bone, but I was only using the female character anyway. I do think the eyes are weird, but I don't think the character looks as 'grotesque' as some people are claiming. I think it's really tough to judge stuff like this when there are so few representations of people and they're meant to be exaggerated and referential. I did go through all the different outfits to see what was available and you can make both him and Axl (the default name for the white male character) look different in similar ways. They both have more formal stuff with ties and/or collars, vaguely sci-fi looking stuff, hip hop clothing (bandanas and saggy pants). Axl has sleeve and prison tattoos and thankfully there's no tribal shit for T-Bone, so, uh, small victory there.

 

As for Helga, I dunno how I feel about it. On one hand it's a design for a lady that is physically tough in ways a lot of female player characters aren't. She also wears sexy clothing exclusively (midriff is exposed on every outfit) and is designed in a way that still draws attention to her secondary sex characteristics . Is that better than a common comic superheroine female body shape who also wears only sexy clothing? I think so, but it's not much better. Unlike the male characters, she doesn't have as wide a variety of clothing choices which definitely sucks. It could partially be because she was added later, however the way she was introduced kinda makes me think that this is her character's thing (blog)

.  As for whether or not they're playing her looks for laughs, I think that depends on the player. I usually play listening to a podcast, so I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure there's no character voice commentary. She doesn't have any sort of voice or receive comments by anything written in the game. So, for me she just comes off as a tough lady who likes the way she looks in the same way a female Dota character (which are samey and bad for the most part) does. Ideally we'd have female character designs in games that show all sorts of body types matched with style preference like with a lot of male designs.

[syntheticgerbil]

It's funny because I tried multiple times to work here as an animator, but I wasn't cool enough for this stuff.

[darthbator]

I think you're right, and I think it's a genuine force of good too.

 

I don't think this is a force for good. Most of the same people I personally know who white knighting all over the internet crusading against perceived wrongs are the same people who are telling people to eat shotgun shells or jump off bridges. It's just another facet of the faceless internet user lashing out. Sure it's often more reasonable then the homicidal screaming at the creator of flappy bird. But I think it's an extremely dangerous road to tread down where basically everything can be interpreted as racism or sexism or some other ism. 

[Zeusthecat]

But I think it's an extremely dangerous road to tread down where basically everything can be interpreted as racism or sexism or some other ism. 

 

Then where should the line be drawn? When is something racist or sexist enough that it is appropriate to call it out? I think it is perfectly reasonable for these discussions to be had and I don't see why intelligent discourse wouldn't naturally expose when something is being called out unfairly.

[darthbator]

Because we're on the internet right now and the discussion is rarely going to be intelligent or tolerant. I totally agree with you. It's not the kind of thing that can be ignored I just feel like we've come to a place where the burden of proof falls more on the shoulders of the person defending the thing then the person leveling that very serious criticism. 

[Twig]

Did you forget our justice system is modeled on guilty until proven innocent?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

ehehehheeeeehhe

 

i'm sorry

[darthbator]

Stop being so eloquent with my point. It's my point!!!! I plan to spend at least another 2000 words trying to nonsensically defend it.

[Gormongous]

Did you forget our justice system is modeled on guilty until proven innocent?

 

Man, Twig, come on. The system is modeled on "own your shit," which is something the internet doesn't really know how to do, period. Still, the fact that the default stance is denial when this sort of thing comes up is what really bothers me. If I say, "Hey, that thing you made uses a lot of what seems to be racist imagery," the response shouldn't be, "Nope, I'm not racist, hence I'm incapable of doing racist things," nor should it be, "We've leveraged a plethora of focus-tested consumer feedback in order to determine that this is the optimal art for our game, but thank you for your time."

 

It shouldn't be my job, as a conscientious consumer of art, to decide whether or not this particular battle is one worth fighting, let alone decide how to phrase my criticism so it doesn't hurt someone's fee-fees. Let the people who make this stuff own their shit. I own what I say about it.

[Twig]

gormongous i am being fucking stupid chill your GRILL

[Gormongous]

gormongous i am being fucking stupid chill your GRILL

 

Dude, go be stupid in Titanfall thread or something. This here's serious business.

[Twig]

Serious business doesn't mean I can't make light of the situation!

[Gormongous]

Serious business doesn't mean I can't make light of the situation!

 

No, no light, only heavy.

[Twig]

Only heavy? So I should drop like a serious load right now.

[Bjorn]

Because we're on the internet right now and the discussion is rarely going to be intelligent or tolerant. I totally agree with you. It's not the kind of thing that can be ignored I just feel like we've come to a place where the burden of proof falls more on the shoulders of the person defending the thing then the person leveling that very serious criticism. 

 

I appreciate where you're coming from, but I think this thread and plenty of other examples disprove what you're saying.  If someone is just screaming "SEXIST" in a comment thread, or is raging about privilege, that doesn't communicate anything.  But the crowd that hangs out here mostly intelligently discusses things.  prettyunsmart opened this discussion expressing discomfort with Loadout, gave multiple examples from the game, and then provided examples historically of how similar artwork was used to dehumanize and vilify a minority.  Then showed how that historical example was similar to what was shown in the game, and finally asked for others opinions on those observations.  That's expressing concern with thought and analysis.  You brushed aside the existence of intelligent discussion in a thread where intelligent discussion and analysis is happening.

 

The same thing happens on blogs and sites all over the Internet.  Often when someone criticizes a game for being sexist, they aren't just screaming into the aether, but do break down their concerns much like the OP here did.  But that rational analysis of a potential problem is then dismissed as being oversensitive by lumping it in with the trolls and with people complaining with out being able to present an argument for their concern.  That's basically what you did with the examples of your acquaintances earlier, who just sound like trolls with their actions.

[Gormongous]

Only heavy? So I should drop like a serious load right now.

 

Well, shit away!

 

But honestly, while I understand whatever concerns anyone might have about something like this hijacking the discourse on every game that comes alone, I think that "social justice warriors" flinging death threats are like welfare queens and bra-burning man-haters and job-stealing illegal immigrants and wife-raping Negroes... They no doubt exist, but their existence is given disproportionate credence by the public at large, who see them to mean something more than what they do, which is that no ideology, however noble and progressive, is free of monsters and idiots. I don't mean to say that that's what you're doing here, Darth Bator, but there are some scary implications behind any request not to talk about bigotry or oppression out of a sense of decorum.

 

 

EDIT: Dammit, Bjorn. Stop being better than me.

[Jake]

I'm not trying to fire a shot at the OP or anything but I feel like we have an entire generation of having an opinion police out there scouring the internet for stuff to get offended by.

I don't think he's off base or being opinionated in a way that is different from me by pointing out that the Mr T character is being stylized only to look more like minstrel imagery. Those choices by the artist aren't arbitrary.

Your not being bothered by the image is fine but it's not a reason to blanket label someone else's opinion and feelings.

[darthbator]

I don't think I'm trying to blanket label anything. I'm merely saying that in my estimation accusations of racism indicate an accusation of hate deep in someones heart, in this case the artist in question. For people kicking around on the internet I see that accusation thrown around a lot. I'll just shut up now I guess.

[Bjorn]

DIT: Dammit, Bjorn. Stop being better than me.

 

Be faster

 

I don't think I'm trying to blanket label anything. I'm merely saying that in my estimation accusations of things like racism indicate, an accusation of hate deep in someones heart, in this case the artist in question. For people kicking around on the internet I see that accusation thrown around a lot. I'll just shut up now I guess.

 

You don't need to shut up if you want to keep talking about it.

 

There's a really big difference between a creation having racist elements, and the creator being a racist.  A lot of racism/sexism comes not from hate, but from ignorance, lazily depending on tropes or from just going along with the cultural norm.   Even if it wasn't the creator's intent to create something with racism or sexism in it, that doesn't mean that it shouldn't be examined in those terms if they fit. 

 

Most of us have some level of racism, sexism, homophobia, transphobia or something in us.  We exist in a complex culture with a million influences.  We shouldn't expect our creators, or their creations, to be perfect.  But nonetheless, we should examine those creations to see if they cross lines that perpetuate harmful stereotypes.  It's one of the ways we get better as a society.

Edited February 19, 2014 by Bjorn

[Gormongous]

You don't need to shut up if you want to keep talking about it.

 

There's a really big difference between a creation having racist elements, and the creator being a racist.  A lot of racism/sexism comes not from hate, but from ignorance, lazily depending on tropes or from just going along with the cultural norm.   Even if it wasn't the creator's intent to create something with racism or sexism in it, that doesn't mean that it shouldn't be examined in those terms if they fit. 

 

Most of us have some level of racism, sexism, homophobia, transphobia or something in us.  We exist in a complex culture with a million influences.  We shouldn't expect our creators, or their creations, to be perfect.  But nonetheless, we should examine those creations to see if they cross lines that perpetuate harmful stereotypes.  It's one of the ways we get better as a society.

 

Yeah, I agree with all of that. If racism and sexism were just products of hate, it'd be really easy for everyone to eliminate it from their own lives by cutting out every hateful person they knew, but I can still be among good friends, hear one of them say something's retarded or gay, often the first time they've said so in twenty years, and feel the full weight of ten thousand years of bullshit come crashing down. It's not usually individual hate, although it's important to remember that such individuals do exist, but it's certainly a deep cultural and societal hate, subliminated and diffused to the point that it's impossible to recognize unless you work really hard all the time, which no one can, so we have to help each other spot what's fucked up about what we all make and do. For instance, I really like calling stuff "lame", to the point that I don't always notice I'm doing it unless other people point it out, and I consider myself pretty damn conscientious. It's a screwy world.

 

I also agree with Darth Bator that I am worried about legitimate racist and sexist critiques someday becoming diluted into straw men for trolls to knock over and burn, but right now that's a problem I'd rather have than accidental minstrel-show influences on video game art.

[Nachimir]

Because we're on the internet right now and the discussion is rarely going to be intelligent or tolerant.

 

You're on the Idle Thumbs forums, where it's often both of those things.

[Jake]

I don't think I'm trying to blanket label anything. I'm merely saying that in my estimation accusations of racism indicate an accusation of hate deep in someones heart, in this case the artist in question. For people kicking around on the internet I see that accusation thrown around a lot. I'll just shut up now I guess.

Please don't shut up! What people wrote in the posts below yours but above this one say it better than I could. There is interesting discussion to be had, beyond insinuation and accusation, even on the Internet! Sorry if I was contributing.

[prettyunsmart]

Woah. Things happened in this thread while I wasn't paying attention.

 

So my original point, probably not very well stated isn't to say the artist him/herself is racist or people who don't find the image racist are racist. Really, what I wanted to raise is that the Mr. T-styled character reproduces elements of problematic images from the past. The insidious thing about these aspects of culture is that they get produced and reproduced often just through cultural osmosis. We see them so often that we don't think about them, but the troubling history behind them still lingers. Did the person who designed the character set out to make a racially troubling image? Probably not. Does its presence continue a cycle of racial representation that leads to ideas about race that are generally pretty messed up? Maybe. 

 

EDIT: I just noticed Bjorn basically said this a post or two ago. I guess I should read the whole thread before posting.

[ariskany_evan]

So very glad this discussion happened!  Makes me feel all warm and gooey inside.

 

I think there's a difference between being someone with an overt agenda, and someone who is caught feeling like something is questionable (who still has an intrinsic agenda, but is doing his best to acknowledge that and be open-minded in choosing how to express themselves).

 

Prettyunsmart's question of "Am I the only one seeing this?" comes from a place of loneliness.  I watch [a show I won't name because it's not pertinent] and think "I like this show and these comedians, but it also seems homophobic."  I can't just sit there and not talk about it!  Otherwise a feeling of extreme loneliness overwhelms me.  So I force my wife to discuss it with me (thankfully she puts up with me and my lack of friends).

 

So I am always appreciative of someone explicitly and clearly pointing out some aspects of a game that could be culturally/politically problematic.  And I'm also appreciative of people disagreeing, as long as it's not couched in dismissive-ness.  Nothing worse than seeing a discussion derailed to argue about whether we should be discussing that thing in the first place.

 

Everyone here is awesome.