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Chris

Idle Thumbs 145: Rich Uncle, Cool Uncle

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Maybe he had only played Gravity Bone. :)

 

I was forced to replay the first act of Gravity Bone several times because my graphics card drivers and the game were not willing to co-operate. That did not really bother me because practically everything about the opening - the visual style, the setting, the sounds of the crowd, and so on - was perfect. I remember hoping that someone (preferably Blendo) would eventually make a longer* game based on that first act of Gravity Bone. Judging by Jake's description Jazzpunk isn't that, but it seems interesting enough for me to pick it up eventually.

 

* I usually prefer shorter games, but Gravity Bone was really really short.

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Edit: I don't think my comment was appropriate for this episode thread, probably came off as directed at Nick, which I wasn't trying to do, and is a topic that has been discussed pretty extensively elsewhere on the forums.

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The difference between Giantbomb's and your Flappy Bird discussion is hilarious. Gerstmann with his usual elitist "garbage non-game, phone games" spiel, Vinny and Brad's inane babble "I don't know anything about this but I'm gonna throw out a bunch of conspiracy theories".

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#hailremo?

 

I was a little disappointed with Klepek's post because I anticipated a big blast in the direction of people who go 'that's just how the internet is' because I think those people are responsible for the problem. They're the ones who have normalised the idea of being an asshole on the internet, not the assholes themselves. They are the ones who should be saying something when others are assholes on the internet, and by avoiding that responsibility to set cultural standards, are the ones who allow bad behaviour to perpetuate.

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The difference between Giantbomb's and your Flappy Bird discussion is hilarious. Gerstmann with his usual elitist "garbage non-game, phone games" spiel, Vinny and Brad's inane babble "I don't know anything about this but I'm gonna throw out a bunch of conspiracy theories".

Just feel the need to mention that Jeff did not call it a non-game: he called it a bad game. Also: Nick threw out more conspiracy theories than Vinny and Brad, and came across as more willing to believe in them than either.

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Just feel the need to mention that Jeff did not call it a non-game: he called it a bad game. Also: Nick threw out more conspiracy theories than Vinny and Brad, and came across as more willing to believe in them than either.

I'm pretty sure he blanketed all popular smartphone games as non-games. I don't someone is serious when they laugh after every statement they make unlike VInny and Brad that acted like fucking armchair psychologists.

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Chris, did you ever have any issues where you might start a game of Minesweeper on expert mode and then realize five hours have went by?

 

For me, and it sounds like for Chris, this is exactly the same loop as Threes. There's exactly enough skill involved that you think "I can improve, I have a new tactic I want to try out, if only I try to achieve this pattern" etc. Yet there's enough randomization that when you lose, your brain says "damn, I got unlucky in the draw this time. The next round will treat me better, then I can beat my score." I can't imagine the amount of playtesting and fine-tuning required to reach that point.

 

Another game that catches you in the same pattern is Drop7, that Chris also fell victim to as I recall.

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For me, and it sounds like for Chris, this is exactly the same loop as Threes. There's exactly enough skill involved that you think "I can improve, I have a new tactic I want to try out, if only I try to achieve this pattern" etc. Yet there's enough randomization that when you lose, your brain says "damn, I got unlucky in the draw this time. The next round will treat me better, then I can beat my score." I can't imagine the amount of playtesting and fine-tuning required to reach that point.

 

Another game that catches you in the same pattern is Drop7, that Chris also fell victim to as I recall.

Yep, totally.

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I think the fact that Dong Nguyen is an independent Vietnamese developer who doesn't have the strongest command of the English language is an under-appreciated aspect of the discussion around Flappy Bird. I can't imagine a normal white, American dude who made an incredibly rough around the edges game that inexplicably got popular receiving the same amount of scrutiny from the internet. That and all the vitriol he has received strike me as having a really strong xenophobic element.

 

Happily for me at least, all the independent game developers I follow on twitter seem really sympathetic to Nguyen. I suspect a lot of them have the self-awareness and humility to empathize with him. The serious problem was how the games media covered this, Kotaku being the worst agent out there (and from the comments I'm seeing here maybe Giant Bomb too), but there were a bunch of outlets that covered this in a really uncritical and thoughtless manner which I think probably stoked a lot of the internet outrage. So I think it's fitting in a way that this was discussed on the 10th anniversary of Idle Thumbs which was predicated on the promise of a new type of games journalism. I'm glad that your discussion of this was a lot more level headed!

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Ok, I'm just going to say it. Jake, you've got the date wrong. It's the 13th!

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I think the fact that Dong Nguyen is an independent Vietnamese developer who doesn't have the strongest command of the English language is an under-appreciated aspect of the discussion around Flappy Bird. I can't imagine a normal white, American dude who made an incredibly rough around the edges game that inexplicably got popular receiving the same amount of scrutiny from the internet. That and all the vitriol he has received strike me as having a really strong xenophobic element.

 

Happily for me at least, all the independent game developers I follow on twitter seem really sympathetic to Nguyen. I suspect a lot of them have the self-awareness and humility to empathize with him. The serious problem was how the games media covered this, Kotaku being the worst agent out there (and from the comments I'm seeing here maybe Giant Bomb too), but there were a bunch of outlets that covered this in a really uncritical and thoughtless manner which I think probably stoked a lot of the internet outrage. So I think it's fitting in a way that this was discussed on the 10th anniversary of Idle Thumbs which was predicated on the promise of a new type of games journalism. I'm glad that your discussion of this was a lot more level headed!

 

Posts like this make me really happy that the Idle Thumbs community is what it is -- thank you.

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I think the fact that Dong Nguyen is an independent Vietnamese developer who doesn't have the strongest command of the English language is an under-appreciated aspect of the discussion around Flappy Bird. I can't imagine a normal white, American dude who made an incredibly rough around the edges game that inexplicably got popular receiving the same amount of scrutiny from the internet. That and all the vitriol he has received strike me as having a really strong xenophobic element.

 

Happily for me at least, all the independent game developers I follow on twitter seem really sympathetic to Nguyen. I suspect a lot of them have the self-awareness and humility to empathize with him. The serious problem was how the games media covered this, Kotaku being the worst agent out there (and from the comments I'm seeing here maybe Giant Bomb too), but there were a bunch of outlets that covered this in a really uncritical and thoughtless manner which I think probably stoked a lot of the internet outrage. So I think it's fitting in a way that this was discussed on the 10th anniversary of Idle Thumbs which was predicated on the promise of a new type of games journalism. I'm glad that your discussion of this was a lot more level headed!

 

Yeah, I've had the uncomfortable sense from several places on this that the stereotype of Asian-dude-making-crappy-knockoff has been an automatic assumption, and thus predisposed a lot of people to a particular kind of bias. 

 

It's tied into a prevailing thought in parts of the gaming community that indie devs from certain parts of the world (NA and Europe) are automatically creative, hard working, decent gents trying to bring something wonderful into the world, while indie devs in other parts of the world (Asia particularly) are just one step removed from con men trying to ride the latest clonewave to Fortune Town or just making microtransaction laden skinnerboxes. 

 

It would be fascinating to get a better look at what's going on with development in these countries.  I read gaming news daily, and yet am almost completely ignorant of the happenings in that part of the world other than Japan and the odd breakout Korean game.  The same is true of Africa and India. 

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That networked indie arcade cabinet Chris was talking about at the end of the episode is called the Winnitron. Niddhog is on there too, as is Super Crate Box multiplayer. Two exist in The Netherlands; one in the Dutch Game Garden and one in The Hague that we at my old job built out of an old MK3 cabinet (the creation of which is chronicled here and here).

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And then the idea that a realistic world makes random physical humor much funnier than a constructed goofiness like Saints Row ... man. Why did I only start listening to this podcast a few weeks ago!

 

Which is fair, except that I think a lot of the people recommending Saints Row 3 & 4 to the Thumbs crew are not recommending it because of the wacky goofiness, but because it's just plain got better and smarter (and less sexist) writing than most "serious" games like GTA or Far Cry.

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I just wanted to say that I hate all of you and I hope you die.

 

 

But in all seriousness, I feel bad about how that discussion turned out. I came into the podcast planning to bring it up myself and talk about how I believed the guy and how nuts the internet was, but when Jake and Chris both took that angle, I thought for discussion's sake I'd bring up the counter arguments. Chris can attest that sometimes I like to argue for the sake of it, which probably isn't a good thing on a topic that people are fired up about. And of course, having barely glanced at the internet in the last few months, I spoke about it pretty offhandedly and inarticulately, which is the primary reason why I haven't been on Thumbs lately. Crunching on a video game pretty much means I have no idea what the hell is going on.

 

I definitely sympathize with the guy. When a lot of money is involved, I tend to look at two tweets as the beginning of a story rather than the end, but I certainly believe that someone in his position would feel overwhelmed enough to react the way that he did. It's why I retweeted his stuff in the first place.

 

It's interesting because it makes me think about how close, to me, the internet has become to a necessary evil. I'd probably take that money and not give it back simply because I'd also delete my Twitter account and retire to a cleaner existence. While working in social media for a few years, I had a lot of time to study the general noise that exists surrounding literally anything. It's all pretty gross. I would caution anyone that releases something publicly to hope for the best of people, and expect the worst. This is why communities like Idle Thumbs are so special.

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Nick, we love you man.

 

It's a thorny dicussion to be in from all angles but I personally didn't object to you playing devil's advocate of sorts. It did make things more interesting to listen to. I don't really know how other people feel about it but for me there's no harm done.

 

p.s. good luck on the crunching man, I know what that can be like!

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I agree with cast-Nick (not about Flappy Bird being a secret terrorist, but about what sort of reaction I anticipate I'd have if I fell into a pool of money and e-wrath).

 

Jazzpunk sounds not terrible! I didn't realize it was released until hearing about it on this pod-cast. If I were not on the verge of becoming The Busiest Man for a while and also if I hadn't spent my discretionary funds on a Baconator >_<, I would consider watching a trailer and weighing a purchasing decision in my mind! (It is encouraging that none of the wackiness Jake mentioned was CRUDE WACKINESS and maybe the whole game adheres to those quality standards?)

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I just wanted to say that I hate all of you and I hope you die.

 

I hope that you have sons... Handsome, beautiful, articulate sons, who are talented and star athletes and they have their legs taken away. I mean I pray you know that pain and that hurt.

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Which is fair, except that I think a lot of the people recommending Saints Row 3 & 4 to the Thumbs crew are not recommending it because of the wacky goofiness, but because it's just plain got better and smarter (and less sexist) writing than most "serious" games like GTA or Far Cry.

I listen to a lot of Giant Bomb stuff, and they revere that game there, which really played into my overly high expectations for the game. I'm not really a huge fan of GTA's sense of humor (it's so obvious it's barely satirical), and I really disliked everything story-wise in Far Cry 3, which is the only one I've played.

 

I can see the "Saints Row is so smart about how dumb it is" argument, but for me it just never worked. I don't know why I think it is so unfunny, and yet Hot Rod is one of my favorite comedic movies ever. I think maybe there is an element of it trying to hard to be wacky. Or something.

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Just had an epic Threes run destroyed by an accidental swipe. =(

 

es8Mrk4.jpg

 

If that six on the left had gone the right way (up), I could have basically added all the numbers up and upgraded the biggest one even more, potentially doubling my score. But, I broke top 100 on the all time leaderboard, so still fairly happy about it.

 

Ok, carry on with the actual discussion now.

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The Flappy Bird drama is infuriating to me regarding one angle, but on the actual guy and the game itself:

 

It isn't a new scenario. People flood app stores every day with something, and once in a while something dumb just takes root. It happens and will continue to happen regardless of product quality. That people are outraged over this baffles me. I've never done well for myself financially in life. When I hear about what kind of revenue this guy was bringing in, sure I get jealous, but even I can set that aside pretty easily.

 

The angle that has me upset is that the internet has demonstrated once again how fucking ridiculous it can be over the most trite shit. I didn't even know there were conspiracy theories regarding this guy somehow gaming some rating system or whatever. But all the effort going toward trashing this guy and his product just makes me want to shake people violently while yelling, "It's a fucking video game!" Do you know how much better our world would be if people channeled all this effort into their jobs or aiding the unfortnate, etc? But no, this is the thing people get up to - an app one dude made.

 

The most disgusting thing is hte people saying he should just "deal with it" regarding the threats and hate he's getting just because he's rich now. People I know that would agree with the sentiment that "money doesn't buy happiness" suddenly turned around to say the guy getting 50k a day makes it okay that he's getting this abuse.

 

Another argument I saw presented was that he should just stop using Twitter. Which is an absurd notion for game developers to do, because working social media can really help your game in various ways.

 

Ultimately everyone needs to just shut the fuck up over a non-event. And I'm disappointed that we still have prominent voices in video games media taking the "mobile apps aren't games" thing forward, especially into this incident.

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By the way, thank you guys for describing what Flappy Bird is in great detail (as a game). I don't have a mobile so I can't check what this game is myself, and nobody on the internet is willing to describe it. I mean beyond the "it's a Mario ripoff" jargon just because there's green pipes.

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