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Dromgatti1982

Dota 2 vs Heroes of the Storm

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I was listening to one of your podcast where you referred to Blizzard ripping off dota 2 in regards to heroes of the storm.  I was just shocked that you would accuse Blizzard of ripping of valve.  Having control over a hero from a top down perspective, inventory items, and hotbar abilities have been in blizzard games since Diablo 1.  They were the originators of that whole thing.  You also mentioned that blizzard stole the pudge hook.  I am just shocked and appalled, I could make a list a mile long of abilities Valve stole directly from blizzard, one example is lich’s frost shield (ironically enough dota also called “their” hero lich).   To top it all off, you can almost go down the list of dota 2 heroes and blatantly see who they are watered down Blizzard rip offs of. 

 

All that being said, I do enjoy dota 2 very much and I am skeptical about Blizzards no items/last hit style of lord’s game.  I realize you’re massive fans of dota 2, but be honest with yourself… who is ripping off who here?  Hope I didn’t offend, just how I feel. Take care, sorry I didn’t proof read this much, I want to go play dota lol.

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You've come to the wrong place if you want to have arguments, I suspect, although perhaps the vitriol of the LoMas will flourish even here of all places.

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I wouldn't call Dota heroes watered down Blizzard ripoffs, I would call them characters form Blizzard games.  Also there's nothing ironic about Dota heroes having the same names as blizzard characters, they're the same characters.  Skeleton King was called King Leoric in DotA because it was King Leoric form Diablo.  Same with Butcher and Furion and Thrall and most everyone. 

 

By the way this could probably have just been a post in the thread for the episode instead of it's own thread.  I just suggest that as it might get more views/discussion from people who will see the title of this thread and just decide to back away slowly.

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Well, which one is it?

Hah! Same thought I had last night before deciding not to be the first person to respond to this thread.

 

I have a hard time believing Idle Thumbs ever implied Heroes of the Storm ripped off of Dota 2 out of any real sense of malice or deep knowledge of the game, and I have an even harder time trying to understand what the point of this thread is other than to set off some huge debate for the ages that only like two people actually care about.

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Hey man! I think that I left out a bunch of that stuff because it just sort of goes without saying. Almost all of the heroes in Dota came directly from Warcraft 3 characters, including their names! War3 is the progenitor of this whole thing for sure. So almost all of the abilities in Dota can be directly attributed to Blizzard. Also I think it's worth noting that without the ridiculously extensive mod support from Blizzard for War3 the LoMa genre wouldn't even be a thing. I'm all about giving credit where credit is due! :D!

 

But!

 

The reason that I brought up the Pudge hook specifically is that this is the kind of ability that did not exist in War3. I could be wrong about that, but I think that it was the Dota modders that created this iconic ability.

 

It's just fascinating to me that the Blizzard LoMa would infuse things that came out of the mod. Does a LoMa need to have a character with a Pudge-style hook? Is that even necessary? Does the hook have to be on the Abomination character? I feel like they're doing so many things to purposefully distance themselves from Dota that it's just really interesting to see that particular idea get used in that form by the original creator. It's like a snake eating its tail times infinity! :D!

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Hey man! I think that I left out a bunch of that stuff because it just sort of goes without saying. Almost all of the heroes in Dota came directly from Warcraft 3 characters, including their names! War3 is the progenitor of this whole thing for sure. So almost all of the abilities in Dota can be directly attributed to Blizzard. Also I think it's worth noting that without the ridiculously extensive mod support from Blizzard for War3 the LoMa genre wouldn't even be a thing. I'm all about giving credit where credit is due! :D!

 

But!

 

The reason that I brought up the Pudge hook specifically is that this is the kind of ability that did not exist in War3. I could be wrong about that, but I think that it was the Dota modders that created this iconic ability.

 

It's just fascinating to me that the Blizzard LoMa would infuse things that came out of the mod. Does a LoMa need to have a character with a Pudge-style hook? Is that even necessary? Does the hook have to be on the Abomination character? I feel like they're doing so many things to purposefully distance themselves from Dota that it's just really interesting to see that particular idea get used in that form by the original creator. It's like a snake eating its tail times infinity! :D!

 

The character models are attributed to Blizzard but almost every spell in dota is hacked together via scripting. Earthshaker fissure, wisp's tether, spectre's ulti, invoker, every disruptor skill except thunder strike, etc.

 

There's a lot more abilities in dota than WC3 had. Even skeleton king's new aura has to be glued together with vampiric potion procs on autoattacks for ranged units.

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There's a lot more abilities in dota than WC3 had. Even skeleton king's new aura has to be glued together with vampiric potion procs on autoattacks for ranged units.

Seriously? I knew the W3 engine wasn't the easiest to work with, but that is hilarious!

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Seriously? I knew the W3 engine wasn't the easiest to work with, but that is hilarious!

Ursa's ulti used to be a 2nd unit that attacked the same targets ursa attacked, stacking fury swipes. It also had a higher range than ursa.

 

I don't know how icefrog hacked the new bloodseeker movement in WC3. 

 

There's a bunch of less insane spells like sand king's ulti being a bunch of units casting the mountain king's thunderclap ability (every one getting bigger).

 

QOP of pain is special, all of her non ulti abilities are copied 1:1 mechanically off the ladder NE hero, the warden. The numbers were changed. Her ulti was also taken off something else, maybe shockwave?

 

Tiny's ulti just straight up replaced the hero with a new identical one, if you levelled this when you had some shit on you like a DOT, it would remove it. This might still be in the game?

 

Pudge's hook is also silly how much work went into it.

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I find it really interesting that the WC3 modding / map-making community basically spawned two brand new genres with DOTA and WC3 Tower Defense. For a game that wasn't quite able to match how huge Broodwar and Diablo II were in the multiplayer scene, it's amazing how influential it ended up being.

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You'd be amazed at the creativity and talent of the DotA developers. This is a quote from Neichus, the person that took over from Steve and colaborated with Icefrog (before he got the leash):

Pudge: My pride and joy. What some of you might not know is that the current Pudge is actually the second Butcher that was put into the game. His first incarnation was as a summoner/pusher. He had the ability to store corpses like a Meat Wagon and then raise them. However, his ultimate was probably the most broken spell ever in DotA: Carrion Flies. The flies were a small, weak summon that were able to raise more of themselves. This would unfortunately result in Pudge being able to push an entire lane...while sitting in his base because the flies would increase in number faster than they'd die out. They were doubly horrible because they had no collision size so you'd see one fly....then die because it was actually 50 of them stacked on top of each other. Yeah, he got outright banned by people in public games.

It's been interesting to see how since his inception he's sort of permeated back into Blizzard's design. If you play World of WarCraft you'll notice that many of the abominations now have hooking moves and in Diablo 3 their Butcher also has a similar move.

 

Something along the lines of the last paragraph is, what I think, they were refering to during the podcast.

 

 

Somewhere he also mentions how the Pudge hook was programmed - a bunch of glaives that follow on each other.

You can find a summary of Neichus' thoughts on his time as a DotA develper here.

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I find it really interesting that the WC3 modding / map-making community basically spawned two brand new genres with DOTA and WC3 Tower Defense. For a game that wasn't quite able to match how huge Broodwar and Diablo II were in the multiplayer scene, it's amazing how influential it ended up being.

 

The WC3 mod scene is like the gift that keeps on giving.

 

http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2014/07/11/the-red-solstice-space-marines/

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