melmer

Middle-earth: Shadow of Mordor

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I have a feeling the nemesis system and the whole "political" game with the captains and chiefs is going to make it's way into A LOT of games in the next few years. I dare to say, this could be this generations cover system mechanic.

 

Can you explain what this system is?  I don't know much about the game other than the Batman/AC influence.

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Ok, so the game started intended to be a Batman game and running through my head playing Mordor, I'd much rather have had that theme going on.

 

Basically, the overall strategy mechanic is a list of a bunch of captains(gang leaders) and a top tier of war chiefs. They have names, they have a list of strengths (like good against heavy attack, can't be killed by monsters, etc) and a list of weaknesses (scared of fire, weak to poison). You're presented with essentially a list that there are X number captains and as you make your way exploring the landscape and interrogating orcs, you reveal their identity and their weaknesses. 

 

In this system you can also see who they are fighting with, if anyone, almost like an old civilization game, you see a red line connecting them with another Orc captain. I haven't gotten too far into using this system, but I'd imagine killing one of their enemies, will strengthen them or there are other ways to pit the two against each other.

 

In addition, there seems to be deliberate quests to make a deal with lower ranking orcs to kill their captain and have them assume the role. So they are now somewhat of an ally/puppet. 

 

The nemesis system seems a bit more chaotic and while it isn't totally, random, I am still early into it where it feels that way. When fighting regular orcs (gang members) through some set of circumstances the game will make them a nemesis, this happens before combat or in the middle, meaning they are given a name and a similar set of strengths and weaknesses. If you don't kill them there and then, they will flee and come back through the course of the game and hunt you down. They make references to past encounters with you (Remember the airfield?). Again, I am too early to see how this all plays out, only one nemesis has gotten away from me and did just show up again, I think with a helmet over his eye complaining about the scar I gave him last time. I killed him pretty quickly, so I haven't encountered the really tough ones other people have mentioned.

 

There is probably more going on too, I'm still early in.

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Huh, that sounds like it's probably a neat way to add a feeling of permanence and depth to the world, providing it doesn't become unwieldy or annoying.

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Mordor seems small. Maybe more opens up in time? I don't think so though.

 

It does open up more. Don't be afraid to do some story missions, not just for that reason but also because they open up some neat abilities. You haven't even seen the beauty of the Nemesis/army system until you've unlocked Branding.

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Additional to that, if an orc kills you, he gets a promotion and new traits. That means that if you lose to a guy once, he gets more and more powerful and provides a goal that feels a lot more personal than following the basic story.

I think I'm going to have to get this. I wish I'd gotten in on that GMG deal.

Edit: Anyone on the fence, GMG's October code is out and covers Shadows of Mordor as well. OCTOBE-R25OFF-GMGXXX

Edit2: This might be a good time to try out Steam's remote play.

Edit3: I have made poor financial decisions.

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Additional to that, if an orc kills you, he gets a promotion and new traits. That means that if you lose to a guy once, he gets more and more powerful and provides a goal that feels a lot more personal than following the basic story.<br /><br />I think I'm going to have to get this. I wish I'd gotten in on that GoG deal.

 

That's fucking cool.

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I've heard some stories that make the system seem really interesting.  Like how if one particular character keeps getting away, it can actually create a strong drive to find him.  Or if another keeps killing you, it motivates you to seek vengeance.  Not to mention the potential for power plays and espionage.  I can easily see this becoming a popular feature in other games.

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It's definitely what elevates the game. It makes the mediocre combat suddenly really interesting- or as Polygon put it, it turns an action game with incredibly simplistic combat into a strategy game of how to systematically take down and weaken an enemy army.

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I don't know that "incredibly simplistic combat" is fair. It is simpler than the Arkham combat system only in that there are fewer "gadgets" that can be thrown into the mix. In every other way it it almost identical.

 

While I am a big fan of the way the Arkham series incentivises deliberate use of as many different methods of attack as possible, I can see how a grading system for combat in this game would probably be too much given the complexity of the scenarios. What I mean by this is in Batman you can focus on trying to use your Batarangs, grappling gun, explosive gel, etc. all in one fight to get the best score because you're always in a very contained combat area that only includes yourself, enemies and maybe a couple of environmental objects (fire extinguishers and the like). In Shadow of Mordor, you may be in the middle of an enemy fortress which includes archers firing down on you, reinforcements coming in from any conceivable direction and enemies running for alarms. Then you add in the fact that wildlife may be involved (caragors and ghuls, most notably), that you may be RIDING a caragor, that there may be a captain involved with particular strengths and weaknesses, and that environmental objects exist in this game too (fires, bee hives). Also, that at any time you can start climbing and parkouring Assassin's Creed style, and that you can use the bow at any moment as well.

 

For all of these reasons, I can certainly forgive the team for not quite making it to the Arkham level of gadgetary complexity + scoring system. It's certainly already more complex than Assassin's Creed's combat system, and I'm not sure I can think of another game in recent times that exceeds its combination of open world systemic interaction + combat complexity + fluid and unusual encounter design.

 

I would also caution against making judgements about systems within the game while early in it. I'm getting the impression that some in this thread are not actually too deep into the game (especially the story quests), which is fine as it only came out yesterday, but this is definitely a game that reveals systems gradually. Branding changed almost everything about how I played, and as you unlock more rune slots and runes to put in them you may find your playstyle changing as well. My bow has suddenly jumped to the top of my most effective weapons due to acquiring a rune that has a chance to restore focus upon successful kills.

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It's definitely what elevates the game. It makes the mediocre combat suddenly really interesting- or as Polygon put it, it turns an action game with incredibly simplistic combat into a strategy game of how to systematically take down and weaken an enemy army.

 

I think it's hugely underselling the game's combat (even if we're reducing it to the narrowest definition of just the melee mechanics) to call it mediocre. I'd estimate I'm about halfway through the game now in terms of completion, and just venturing into a stronghold presents such an organic and emergent experience.

 

I was originally going to attempt to write about my experience just playing one extremely rewarding (and ultimately failed) mission in a stronghold earlier, where every system just flowed together so dynamically that I really did stop and say "Oh my God," but it just comes off as overly fawning. I love the way the systems in this game interact, though, and I think you have to go a little deep (although not unreasonably so) to see them all. When, in a single mission, you are crafting a dance of explosions, poison, animal domination, melee combat - then moving into stealth to regain the advantage (I could go on about how smart the Brutality kills as a mechanic are) - and in that time killing two captains before finally dying at the hands of some up-jumped grunt of a third, that's a run-on sentence of a great time.

 

Anyway, while I was writing this post, I can see that Gwardinen replied and said what I was trying to say more eloquently, so instead I'll just go out on (very early spoiler):

Isn't Liam O'Brien an incredible Gollum? Did that guy go to school just to learn how to be Andy Serkis?

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Every single time I have set caragors loose to wreak havoc, there has been some NPC that every ten or fifteen seconds will, without fail, shout "IT'S A CARAGOR!" just in case someone still wasn't quite sure what's been tearing all their friends to pieces.

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I think I didn't properly explain what I meant by mediocre combat- I mean just the combat, not anything surrounding it which is what makes it more of a strategy game for me. That's the part I love- having to figure out how to get in, look for tools to help me distract the other orcs so I don't get an army after me, and still leaving enough so I can properly take out my target(suddenly this is sounding like the game we all wished Assassin's Creed was). On the other hand, the core combat to me feels like it lacks depth or any true finesse(which is good, if only because it's so easy to be inaccurate with, say, who you're hopping over).

 

And for the record, I found it super simplistic in Arkham too. I know it's unfair of me, but I'm comparing it to something like a Ninja Gaiden or a Devil May Cry, to describe it as simplistic and mediocre. But I also don't think that core combat is the point- the systems and your manipulation of them seem to be the point most of all to me. Which is why I can't quite leave my computer right now and get work done.

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I think I didn't properly explain what I meant by mediocre combat- I mean just the combat, not anything surrounding it which is what makes it more of a strategy game for me. That's the part I love- having to figure out how to get in, look for tools to help me distract the other orcs so I don't get an army after me, and still leaving enough so I can properly take out my target(suddenly this is sounding like the game we all wished Assassin's Creed was). On the other hand, the core combat to me feels like it lacks depth or any true finesse(which is good, if only because it's so easy to be inaccurate with, say, who you're hopping over).

 

And for the record, I found it super simplistic in Arkham too. I know it's unfair of me, but I'm comparing it to something like a Ninja Gaiden or a Devil May Cry, to describe it as simplistic and mediocre. But I also don't think that core combat is the point- the systems and your manipulation of them seem to be the point most of all to me. Which is why I can't quite leave my computer right now and get work done.

 

I might be alone in this, but outside of the fact that you have a sword those games couldn't be more different to me. They are certainly a different genre. I wouldn't, for example, recommend Bayonetta to someone who likes Batman.

 

 

 

I found something I don't like about the game- the quicktime event is horribly contrived.

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For all of these reasons, I can certainly forgive the team for not quite making it to the Arkham level of gadgetary complexity + scoring system. It's certainly already more complex than Assassin's Creed's combat system, and I'm not sure I can think of another game in recent times that exceeds its combination of open world systemic interaction + combat complexity + fluid and unusual encounter design.

 

I would also caution against making judgements about systems within the game while early in it. I'm getting the impression that some in this thread are not actually too deep into the game (especially the story quests), which is fine as it only came out yesterday, but this is definitely a game that reveals systems gradually. Branding changed almost everything about how I played, and as you unlock more rune slots and runes to put in them you may find your playstyle changing as well. My bow has suddenly jumped to the top of my most effective weapons due to acquiring a rune that has a chance to restore focus upon successful kills.

Frankly, I could never wrap my head around all the hot keys to use gadgets mid combat in Arkham anyway, so that sounds good to me.

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I quite liked the combat in Arkham.  I'm a fan of simplified design over complicated.  I like complex stuff too but I don't like it when that complexity is unnecessary.  The combat in Arkham felt good to me because it mostly let me do what I wanted without needing to remember a complex sequence of inputs.  Mordor seems like its that way too.

 

Quick question for the people playing on PC.  I assume it has full controller support?  I can't really picture not using a controller to play it but all the video I've seen has been of the console releases.

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PC version has controller support. Seems to be a bit better than mouse and keyboard.

 

I've played about 3 hours and I have to say I'm getting a bit overwhelmed by the number of named orcs and their various qualities. They apppear so often that they have become common in my game. One time I was taking on some random side quest and suddenly no less than 5 named orcs found me. Naturally one of them ended up killing me, but thanks to the other 4 guys being there the event ended up feeling rather meaningless. Generally I seem to be unable to get into a fight without attracting some named orc or another. Now so many of them are revealed (I also just used interrogations to reveal more of them since I didn't know what else to do) that it's not easy to focus on a couple of them.

 

And all this happened while I was trying to find the main quests after reading an RPS post recommending that one do the 6 first main quests first (to unlock abilities or go through tutorials). I've now been very distracted from that with learning the names of most of the captains and not knowing what to do with that info yet.

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Isn't Liam O'Brien an incredible Gollum? Did that guy go to school just to learn how to be Andy Serkis?

 

Yeah, I was so sold by that performance that I didn't realise it wasn't him until I looked at the list of voice actors on IMDB later. Some of the others are a bit more middle of the road - Troy Baker as Talion is competent and I'm never bothered by his performance but I'm also never awed by it, and Hirgon is similar. Celebrimbor, on the other hand, I actually quite like.

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Maybe it's just me, but doesn't Talion look exactly like the protagonist from Ride to Hell: Retribution? I'm just waiting for him to engage in poorly timed fully clothed sex with some grateful liberated slave.

 

Excellent game on the whole, but I agree that the named orcs are a little too frequent and easy to kill to feel meaningful.

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Wow, you weren't kidding, just those damn far apart eyes that make him look like a neanderthal. 

 

grumpyconway610.jpg 2615868-mordor.jpg

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They look like the same character in different games from different console generations.

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Quick question for the people playing on PC.  I assume it has full controller support?  I can't really picture not using a controller to play it but all the video I've seen has been of the console releases.

Indeed. In fact, I used Mordor's release as an excuse to pick up the Xbox One controller:

 

rRprwym.jpg

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The strategy of the second half of the game is completely different from the first, holy smokes! I've already put a lot of hours into this game, and it's going to slow way down as I politicize my way through the second set of warchiefs.

E: I haven't even mentioned the literal best feature in this video game, which is the implementation of auto-walk during the walk and talks

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Man, there are some guys that just won't die. I really wished the wording was a bit different when they were defeated but not dead, so I'd at least expect to see someone again. This one guy just won't die, I can't finish executions on him, so I assume I'll never be able to actually kill him?

 

Another guy is basically invulnerable except to range and explosions, so great, does that mean he can only be defeated and not executed? Or are there some later abilities that will be granted so I can actually keep them dead?

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Maybe it's just me, but doesn't Talion look exactly like the protagonist from Ride to Hell: Retribution? I'm just waiting for him to engage in poorly timed fully clothed sex with some grateful liberated slave.

 

He's just not a very original character. They even have the same depresso back story of having their family murdered, which at this point is almost as cliché as having Amnesia.

 

 

Man, there are some guys that just won't die. I really wished the wording was a bit different when they were defeated but not dead, so I'd at least expect to see someone again. This one guy just won't die, I can't finish executions on him, so I assume I'll never be able to actually kill him?

 

Another guy is basically invulnerable except to range and explosions, so great, does that mean he can only be defeated and not executed? Or are there some later abilities that will be granted so I can actually keep them dead?

 

Some reviews have stated that you need to behead them to kill them for reals. If you can't do a finisher maybe have him fight on your side and he might die in battle.

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