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Sean

Dota Today 9: The Dazzle In Question

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The surrender debate is near and dear to my heart. I am staunchly FOR surrender, and probably always will be!

 
I don't have a lot of time to play the game, so I want to maximize my time with it. Sometimes a game can be over with little to no hope of a comeback at 30 minutes. The next 15 minutes are usually a waste of my time. I'm not talking about the situation where it's 20-25 on the board and you're down 1 tower and someone sullenly cries for a "gg" in response to one teamfight gone wrong. I'm talking about the situation where it's 35-5 and you're down 6 towers and your carry has a hand of midas and a brown boot. You're not coming back from this, no matter how hard the throws!
 
The real reason that I think surrender is necessary is because the matchmaking isn't perfect. We've all gotten stuck playing against people that are just way better than we are. At those times, and only after getting thoroughly trashed, do I want to "gg go next." I just want another shot at a fair fight and I want to get to it as quickly as possible. It could mean the difference between playing 2 games of dota in a night instead of just 1! THAT'S DOUBLE THE DOTA. :D!
 
I think the arguments against surrender are pretty interesting, but there are solutions out there to minimize the impact and/or exploitability of a surrender system. The League system isn't perfect and could be iterated on, but I think it's better to attempt a fair solution as opposed to just ostriching and pretending that this isn't a problem!
 
Thanks for listening to the cast you guys! :D!

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I think allowing a unanimous surrender option in non-ranked games would be great and I don't really see any negatives. Maybe only allowing a surrender after twenty minutes would help relieve people's concerns? I'd like to see it expand to ranked matches too, but it would likely be more pragmatic to see how it impacts the casual games first. 

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Maybe if surrendering prevented you from getting any battle points for the match but still burned point booster time (this mostly to prevent any incentives for item farmers).

And if you were limited to how many surrenders you could initiate in a week, like reports.

And and, if it counted your surrenders (including initiated surrenders that didn't pass) along with your wins and abandons, if only to mark you forever as a quitter :( .

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Maybe if surrendering prevented you from getting any battle points for the match (but still burned point booster time).

And if you were limited to how many surrenders you could initiate in a week, like reports.

And and, if it counted your surrenders (including initiated surrenders that didn't pass) along with your wins and abandons, if only ti mark you forever as a quitter :( .

There are all terrible ideas.

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I guess fountain camping's okay because everyone gets hats.

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Fountain fishing sucks but solving the problem with a surrender mechanic is swatting flies with a-bombs.

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I think surrender would be fine with Dota 2 with these restrictions:

1- only available in non-ranked games

2- counts as a loss for the surrendering team

3- each player gets exactly one chance to propose a surrender

4- must be 4/5 majority for it to pass

(because sometimes there's one player who has to be an asshole)

5- only available after thirty minutes

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That's more or less the LoL style surrender, besides LoL having a 20min timer.  Though in LoL the chances to call the vote aren't limited, but there is a time delay between each time you can.

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Make it 45 minutes (give those late game carries a chance) and no hats for the losing team and you've got a deal.

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Battle Points are totally meaningless (or should be, hiding game modes behind them is the worst, just use games played) and should be a reward for playing.

I'd also like to see consequences for bad conduct like fountain fishing (which is basically just an unseemly end zone dance), but that could be solved in other ways.

I honestly think approving of players quitting, let alone rewarding them with battle points, is bad for the game Valve is making (i.e. the hardest cored LoMa). Dota 2 is a game with high highs and equally low lows and I don't think you can have one without the other.

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I'm getting near 200 matches played and had never heard about the shift queuing. WTF!  That sounds a little complicated but potentially super useful. I'm so antsy when I'm channeling a TP to join my team and watching a fight get started. 

 

Also, I really love the show. The topics are perfect and I appreciate how you guys cover the game and mechanics. A lot of other sources focus on the pro scene, which I can only moderately follow. 

 

Welcome back! Cheers. 

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Battle Points are totally meaningless (or should be, hiding game modes behind them is the worst, just use games played) and should be a reward for playing.

I'd also like to see consequences for bad conduct like fountain fishing (which is basically just an unseemly end zone dance), but that could be solved in other ways.

I honestly think approving of players quitting, let alone rewarding them with battle points, is bad for the game Valve is making (i.e. the hardest cored LoMa). Dota 2 is a game with high highs and equally low lows and I don't think you can have one without the other.

You still need that low to even want to surrender in the first place, just this way that low doesn't eat 15 minutes of my life. I don't think you should be punished for quitting by denying drops, you still played the game.

 

This morning I had a match where we GG'd, the other team still took another ~10 minutes just farming in their jungle for some reason even though we couldn't possibly push back.

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You still need that low to even want to surrender in the first place, just this way that low doesn't eat 15 minutes of my life. I don't think you should be punished for quitting by denying drops, you still played the game.

 

This morning I had a match where we GG'd, the other team still took another ~10 minutes just farming in their jungle for some reason even though we couldn't possibly push back.

 

Don't you understand, you must suffer for as long as necessary so that the opposing team can experience their high to the fullest? Think of the service you're providing them!

 

I'm mostly not serious, of course.

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Or you could push.

Or you could rosh.

Or you could gank.

Or you could backdoor them.

Sell all your stuff and get rapiers.

Do something.

If the other team is passive, go punish them for it.

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Don't you understand, you must suffer for as long as necessary so that the opposing team can experience their high to the fullest? Think of the service you're providing them!

 

I'm mostly not serious, of course.

I wish you weren't joking. That's exactly what Reyturner is saying in pretty much every post he makes. "It's your duty to suffer if the other team decides to be a bunch of shits." I can't do it anymore.

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I agree with Reyturner, but I don't think this topic is worth discussing to this extent. I do think people that stomp, take one rax and fountain camp are horrible; I report them. Valve should probably punish them more. I honestly haven't experienced that many games that go on much longer than I'd like. I have no desire to have another source for arguments and abuse in game because someone fed and thinks the game is over. I also don't want people to go into games to mess around or disconnect, under the belief that they aren't really wasting time because there's a surrender function. I think the argument that allowing surrenders will generally lower the late game ability of players overall, and thus the quality of the game is valid.

 

But if you are having enough shitty* games and experiences nothing I say will matter, and I think that's fair.

 

*And by shitty I mean games where the enemy team gets a lead and griefs to extend it, not games where you lose.

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I'm not talking about matches where there is a slight chance, the matches i'm thinking of are where it's 50 to 15 and no amount of anything is going to get you out.

 

I hate to keep bring up LoL, but that is the game with surrender, I've only ever had legitimately bad players, never had someone just screwing around because "hey it's only 20min till surrender town."

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I hate to keep bring up LoL, but that is the game with surrender, I've only ever had legitimately bad players, never had someone just screwing around because "hey it's only 20min till surrender town."

Yeah I don't really understand where everyone thinks these kinds of people have been hiding. They don't exist. There's no one who would screw around for 20 minutes if a surrender option existed that wouldn't screw around for twenty minutes if it didn't exist.

 

We don't need to dream up fake reasons to justify not including a surrender option. There are real, legitimate concerns that I think everyone here would acknowledge, even if they don't necessarily agree with the importance or relevance of those concerns. This ethereal group of players whose only purpose is to exploit a surrender option don't exist to any degree worth worrying about.

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