Rob Zacny

Episode 245: Auld Lang Zerg

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I think the traditional RTS will be back, probably at the hands of indies; we've now reached the point where the tools are good enough and the machines are fast enough that a small team can reasonably tackle an RTS. Have a look at Enemy Starfighter http://enemystarfighter.com/ or Deep Space Settlement http://dss.stephanierct.com for examples.

 

I suspect the Free To Play tsunami is just about at its peak; I think we're getting close to the point where the available pool of unwary rubes is just about tapped out. It'll stick around; some games will be good enough to keep enough players to survive, but I think we're just about past the day when not being F2P gets you disapproving stares at the green light meeting.

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Maybe another reason why rts are dying (or not) its that given how much graphics and technology improved is very hard for a large company justify a traditional rts game with lower graphics (how rts used to be and in comparsion to other games), but if they up the graphics that most times mean going 3D and building a AI which really understand the 3D element is very trick without any experience on the genre (or even when you have experience) also this mean going away from what rts used to look like. Sure, games such Wargame and others can do it, but look what happened to Rome II even with all CA experience.

On the other hand as Hexgrid pointed, indies might be able to do it, they have more acess to resources and tool that before and they can make a traditional rts, nostalgia might help that too, since its easier for the graphic design, which mean more focus on other elements.

 


Now, about Rome II - right now I am about to uninstall it, while it got a lot better, I still missing something, I guess it was like Rob said in previous episode: it´s soulless. Troy also hit right on about the reduction of the henchmen and other stuff characters used to have. I support the theory that it was rushed, a couple of day before release, they made a very weird statement about how they would offer extra support in the early days after the release... My pet theory is that one) The game was too large too ambicious two) they got to rush it out. Let´s see what next CA might do, I mostly expect that something akin to shogun 2 in quality and focus, it they learned the lesson, as they did before - and maybe we see CA working with that Warhammer IP.
 

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I'm glad to hear that Clockwork Empires is getting some attention. I been reading the dev blogs on and off, and it is sounding really excellent. I will hold out on purchasing until a few trustworthy folk have played it, though. I loved Dungeons of Dredmor, but this this game is not like that one, and it's several orders of magnitude more complex.

 

I think I agree that for the moment the traditional RTS is dead as a mainstream genre. Great companies like Eugen and crowd-funded ventures will ensure that fans can still get a decent one once in a while, but they'll remain a niche product. Perhaps that's not a bad thing. It'll give them a bit more freedom to develop and evolve. In general I'm a little bit bothered that Wargame: AB failed to garner much critical attention. It seemed to pass a lot of people by, which is a shame. Strategy gamers have been banging on for years about wanting more interesting campaigns in RTSs, and when one shows up everyone's like "oh interesting, maybe I'll look at that later" and then never do.

 

I've been trying to get into Civ V with the expansion on and off over the past couple of months, but my games all go about the same way. I'm off in a part of the map doing my own thing. I'm choosing civic and religious perks, building trade routes and the occasional unit so I can beat up some pesky barbarians. There are some other civs off over there presumably doing the same thing. I say presumably because we barely interact. We can't have enough cities to have border conflicts. They never seem to set up trade routes with me. They rarely want to make any diplomatic trades. They're militarily totally passive- they don't seem to want to bother me and with the happiness mechanic I don't see that taking them on would be all that worthwhile, what with the huge time and resource commitment required for an invasion force. I get to somewhere in the Middle Ages and give up out of boredom. Does it get more interesting after that? Should I push on? Do I really need to be the aggressor?

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I couldn't listen to all this talk about roguelikes and Lovecraftian themes without thinking about Vic Davis's Occult Chronicles! I haven't seen a lot of people talking about it, but I think it was a great game with terrific writing, and of Vic's games this is the most fun I've had since Armageddon Empires.

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I couldn't listen to all this talk about roguelikes and Lovecraftian themes without thinking about Vic Davis's Occult Chronicles! I haven't seen a lot of people talking about it, but I think it was a great game with terrific writing, and of Vic's games this is the most fun I've had since Armageddon Empires.

 

I'm so glad to hear you mention this.  I love the basic design, and the pacing, but the interface and artwork were really a tough pill for me to swallow.  I also wish there weren't so many intricate little powers and upgrades.  I'd rather have fewer broader spells and abilities and whatnot.  

 

Still, a Vic Davis design with bad artwork and an awkward interface is way better than most games with better artwork and easier interfaces. :)

 

    -Tom

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I think the traditional RTS will be back, probably at the hands of indies; we've now reached the point where the tools are good enough and the machines are fast enough that a small team can reasonably tackle an RTS. Have a look at Enemy Starfighter http://enemystarfighter.com/ or Deep Space Settlement http://dss.stephanierct.com for examples.

 

Ooh, look at those!  Thanks for the links, hexgrid.

 

    -Tom

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As far as the name of a noise maker, Wikipedia has them listed under "Party horn" and says this on the matter of proper nomeclature, "Unusually, the item is not known consistently by any term in English, also being known as a blow-out, blower, noisemaker, tweeter, blow tickler, squeaker or a fizoo"

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I refuse to call those things "blow ticklers".  That sounds way too dirty.  "Fizoo" is a grand name, but unfortunately, no one would know what the hell I'm talking about.

 

    -Tom

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I think we're long overdue a decent Mech based RTS.

 

Also, some of my favourite RTS'es are ones where you command troops at the troop level - Endwar, Savage, Stormrise (I know, I know).

 

It's time to fuse Chromehounds with Endwar.

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I think we're long overdue a decent Mech based RTS.

 

Also, some of my favourite RTS'es are ones where you command troops at the troop level - Endwar, Savage, Stormrise (I know, I know).

 

It's time to fuse Chromehounds with Endwar.

I agree, the close (at least I know, I might missed a good title or two) we got was Empire Earth (but it take to long to get the right epoch). But for turn based at least the console got the Front Mission (the turn based jrpg game, not that fps thing on steam that look like someone watched too much Gundam 00 but failed to understand what made Gundam fun, oh I could write a lot on what Front Mission Evolved westernization killed the game). To be fair, even C&C Red Alert 3 missed a very good chance to have some real and huge mech showing up... (I still can´t believe, that with a whole faction build up on japanese pop culture stereotypes, but they didn´t have a giant robot made of other five vehicles...)

 

Given how much technology improved, a RTS with some real mech  punching each other (or karate kicking each other in space) is doable and could be awesome.

By the way, after listening again to both episodes about Wargame and reading again Tom Chick´s review of Wargame Airland Battle, I bought it. Luck that while I missed the when it was on sale on steam, Gamersgate give me a second chance (with around 66% of discount). You guys are so right about the game, it´s really good. I was a bit afraid that would be like World in Conflict (which while not bad, the "God Powers" as Tom Chick point and fast pace, ruined the game for me), but Airland Battle is fantastic.

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oh I could write a lot on what Front Mission Evolved westernization killed the game).

 

Did FME still have the thing where all the weapons were english names for sex toys transliterated to Japanese? I have memories of "dirudo missile", but maybe that was FM1 or 2.

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Did FME still have the thing where all the weapons were english names for sex toys transliterated to Japanese? I have memories of "dirudo missile", but maybe that was FM1 or 2.

Really? Never heard about that, I know only FM1 which had only a fan translation, so maybe its rather a mistake or a joke (I know another case where a fan translation, put something that the original game did not had), because weapons appear to have normal names (I did a quick check at a faq).

 

Anyway, I was really thinking of how much Front Mission Evolved became very generic (both plot and gameplay) due poor westernization, which was not really needed given the fm universe is fairly outside normal jrpg troopes and visuals, also it was predate the whole "let's pick a strategy game and turn it on a fps" that didn't work very well in the long run (I am thinking on what happened to syndicate/bureau on pc). One can only imagine that in another universe, had they released a default tatical game with robots, they might have instead predate the xcom revival of the genre.

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Really? Never heard about that, I know only FM1 which had only a fan translation, so maybe its rather a mistake or a joke (I know another case where a fan translation, put something that the original game did not had), because weapons appear to have normal names (I did a quick check at a faq).

 

    A friend of mine worked at Square (he was on the team that did FF7 PC), and he told me it was in the original. I don't remember which one, though; I'm not sure they all made it over here.

 

Anyway, I was really thinking of how much Front Mission Evolved became very generic (both plot and gameplay) due poor westernization, which was not really needed given the fm universe is fairly outside normal jrpg troopes and visuals, also it was predate the whole "let's pick a strategy game and turn it on a fps" that didn't work very well in the long run (I am thinking on what happened to syndicate/bureau on pc). One can only imagine that in another universe, had they released a default tatical game with robots, they might have instead predate the xcom revival of the genre.

 

You mean like the Super Robot Taisen series?

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That would explain, is just I did know about that and by playing fm1 and fme I rememberd a couple names such the sieger rifle, piz missile launcher ect...
 

You mean like the Super Robot Taisen series?


Maybe, at least for a while, back there, a game like that, on the pc would have the advantage of begin the few only more classical turn based tatical games until the xcom revival for the pc (now in my humble opinion, still a even good window for release a good port of one good tatical jrpg/strategy or anything like that, given the genre revival). Also it would avoided much of the players backslash that the changes which FME and later Syndicate and XCOM suffered when they announced their fps versions suffered. On consoles might not made much different at all, as the genre survived there quite well and even maybe take a different ways.

 

Not sure if would work with Robot Taisen in the pc, while I love the idea, I can imagine other players avoiding it, on the other hand, FM maybe could do it (more realistic and more close to battlemech aesthetics)

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It's hard for me to mourn the death of traditional RTS games because I don't understand how anyone wants to play them anymore. Obviously we all have our own personal tastes, but my own consideration for them dropped off a cliff the last year or two. Especially in single player, I can't imagine building bases and managing peons for each new scenario. Bleh.

 

I played Rise of Nations for the first time this year. That might have been my final sendoff for traditional RTS, and a lot of that had to do with the dynamic campaign.

 

Wargame showed me the way forward. RTS is dead, long live RTS.

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