BigJKO

A Dedicated Thread For Talking About Star Trek Episodes

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“I’ve met with a few actors and it’s an interesting process. There’s a few people that we like, because we want to carry on what Star Trek does best — which is being progressive.”

“I think the audience — the progressive audience that loves Star Trek will be happy that we’re continuing that tradition.”

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I kinda hope they end up making it less angular. It looks a bit too aggressive for my liking. But then again that may just be because my leaning has always been towards the philosophical and diplomatic elements of the shows and not the fights.

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There are some interesting theories out there that it's using Klingon technology, thus explaining the raw to aggressive look. Then again, you wouldn't name such a ship "discovery".

Judging from the serial NCC-1031, this is a post-TOS and post-Enterprise series, but plays before Next Generation. If that's the era the Federation is trying to make their own cloaking device, the technology seen in the teaser could even be Romulan.

Could be worthwhile chronicling the proceedings leading up to the treaty of Algeron. Lots of diplomacy there. And my question has always been: How could the Federation be coerced into THIS?! :)

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When does DS9 start getting good? I just started watching it and so far it's falling flat for me. The characters for the most part don't seem super interesting (basically I just like Odo and Quark), but I'm assuming they develop as the show goes on. It seems like there's a lot of setup going on in the episodes so I'm assuming at some point things pick up?

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When does DS9 start getting good? I just started watching it and so far it's falling flat for me. The characters for the most part don't seem super interesting (basically I just like Odo and Quark), but I'm assuming they develop as the show goes on. It seems like there's a lot of setup going on in the episodes so I'm assuming at some point things pick up?

First three seasons are weak, until the Dominion is introduced. Way back when, I posted a list of must-watch episodes if you want to bootstrap to that point.

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When does DS9 start getting good? I just started watching it and so far it's falling flat for me. The characters for the most part don't seem super interesting (basically I just like Odo and Quark), but I'm assuming they develop as the show goes on. It seems like there's a lot of setup going on in the episodes so I'm assuming at some point things pick up?

 

First three seasons are weak, until the Dominion is introduced. Way back when, I posted a list of must-watch episodes if you want to bootstrap to that point.

I found it.  I haven't reviewed the list to see if anything good's missing, other than that I don't think it's worth skipping episodes from season 3 or 4 onwards.  There are still a few bad/dull episodes, but I think they're in low enough frequency at that point.

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Could be worthwhile chronicling the proceedings leading up to the treaty of Algeron. Lots of diplomacy there. And my question has always been: How could the Federation be coerced into THIS?! :)

 

The treaty existed basically because Gene Roddenberry decreed it so.  One of his rules for Star Trek (which I've talked about before) was that the Federation are good guys who don't sneak around and thus wouldn't use cloaking technology.  The treaty was their way of making it official.

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As fun as connective tissue can be, I was looking forward to the 'future'. Post-Nemesis, new worlds, new civilisations, etc. And re. the ship, it isn't clicking with me yet, it feels too unbalanced. I remember seeing the McQuarrie concept it's based on and thinking it was weird.

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As fun as connective tissue can be, I was looking forward to the 'future'. Post-Nemesis, new worlds, new civilisations, etc.

 

Yeah... it all feels too much like prequelitis. And the dangers of prequelitis are canon infringement and surprise impoverishment. :oldman:

 

If Fuller gives us a Star Trek series that features enlightened people on our 21st century level, how do they explain TNG episodes like "The Host" or "The Outcast" that supposedly play out 100 years later?

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So I decided to replace some of my normal afternoon podcast rotation with DS9 episodes, as I've been burning out on some podcasts and have really been jonesing for some Star Trek.  I watched the occasional DS9 episode back when it was airing new, but was never a devout watcher of it. 

 

I'm only 5 episodes in, but I'm really digging the hell out of it so far.  It's certainly got some rough edges, but there's so much interesting potential it's just bursting from the seems. 

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I was not at all into DS9 when it first aired but after my rewatch a couple years ago (gee, has it really been that long?) I like it way more now.  I think I still like TNG and Voyager a bit more, but I'll totally admit DS9 has my favorite Star Trek character on it, Garak.

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Taking Bjorn's lead, I just watched the double-length pilot for DS9.

 

Maybe because I set my expectations very low for the first few seasons, I was surprised at how much I enjoyed it! To be sure, a lot of the acting/dialog-writing was very bad. Some physically painful line reads in there, especially from Bashir and Dax and Sisko. But also, I totally bought into all the sci-fi they were laying down, even the (admittedly too drawn-out) wormhole god dialog sequence. And many of the characters show a lot of potential already. I dunno, it got me excited for more.

 

I was planning on skipping episodes according to Gormongous' guide, but now I'm considering just powering through the whole thing. Let's see how quickly I change my mind.

 

EDIT: also, I only just discovered that Major Kira is NOT played by Didi Conn, like child-me always thought

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I was planning on skipping episodes according to Gormongous' guide, but now I'm considering just powering through the whole thing. Let's see how quickly I change my mind.

 

Since I'm just running these in the background as I work, I decided not to skip anything for now.  I got up to 11 episodes as of this weekend.  There have definitely already been skippable ones.  If I have a complaint, it would be similar to one of my biggest general Star Trek complaints, which is that individual episodes can feel rushed with climax and resolution not necessarily having felt earned (like the all too common "have a science epiphany moments before certain disaster strikes that saves the day"). 

 

That aside, I'm thoroughly enjoying it.  I like that this is a Star Trek where you start in a position of few of the characters having pre-established relationships, and even the ones that do open the show with having experienced a significant change recently affecting that relationship (Sisko and Dax's friendship with Dax in a new host; Odo and Kira in a post-occupation world).  It gives room for conflict and growth as a cast that isn't always present in Star Trek (I've only seriously watched TOS and TNG, so I can't speak to the other ones in that regard).   It's a strength that unlike a starship captain, Sisko doesn't have iron authority over everything that happens on station.  He's in a position where having to deal with the devils he knows (Quark and Garak) is better than dealing with an unknown replacement should characters like them be summarily gotten rid of.

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Since I'm just running these in the background as I work, I decided not to skip anything for now.  I got up to 11 episodes as of this weekend.  There have definitely already been skippable ones.  If I have a complaint, it would be similar to one of my biggest general Star Trek complaints, which is that individual episodes can feel rushed with climax and resolution not necessarily having felt earned (like the all too common "have a science epiphany moments before certain disaster strikes that saves the day"). 

 

That aside, I'm thoroughly enjoying it.  I like that this is a Star Trek where you start in a position of few of the characters having pre-established relationships, and even the ones that do open the show with having experienced a significant change recently affecting that relationship (Sisko and Dax's friendship with Dax in a new host; Odo and Kira in a post-occupation world).  It gives room for conflict and growth as a cast that isn't always present in Star Trek (I've only seriously watched TOS and TNG, so I can't speak to the other ones in that regard).   It's a strength that unlike a starship captain, Sisko doesn't have iron authority over everything that happens on station.  He's in a position where having to deal with the devils he knows (Quark and Garak) is better than dealing with an unknown replacement should characters like them be summarily gotten rid of.

Yeah I feel like there is way more character growth in DS9 than in any of the other shows. Season 1 Sisko and Season 7 Sisko are not the same man. I am so excited for you to see "In the Pale Moonlight" for the first time. It's my favorite Trek episode by far.

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That aside, I'm thoroughly enjoying it. I like that this is a Star Trek where you start in a position of few of the characters having pre-established relationships, and even the ones that do open the show with having experienced a significant change recently affecting that relationship... It gives room for conflict and growth as a cast that isn't always present in Star Trek (I've only seriously watched TOS and TNG, so I can't speak to the other ones in that regard).

I'm watching Voyager now, and it seems like the writers wanted a similar dynamic, but all the change and conflict that it seems like they're setting up is swept under the rug almost immediately. I'm on season 5 or something, and there has been no payoff. DS9 does actually go somewhere with all of that stuff. The characters and relationships evolve in interesting ways.

I totally agree with your criticism of individual episodes, and it is present in all the series, thanks to the episodic storytelling (even in the semi-serialized DS9), where they fuck around for too much of the episode, and then have to resolve the big monster-of-the-week plot in like two seriously dumb minutes at the end. The added layer of character stuff makes it so much more forgiveable in DS9, though. Even the most pointless episode with the least satisfying A plot will at least have the characters learn something about themselves or each other in the B plot, and it will carry forward, unlike TOS or Voyager. TNG was kind of all over the place in that regard, with some things sticking, and others being reset or forgotten.

That brings me to another criticism, which is that the A plot/B plot structure is way too obvious and slavishly followed, even in DS9, the most daring of the modern shows. I think that's a big problem with everything from TNG on. These Voyager episodes seem like they should be a half hour long; just cut out the whole Neelix's kitchen hijinks subplot, or whatever.

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There are bits in the junk episodes of the first season or two that pay off later, but I don't begrudge anyone skipping them. I would say DS9 gets off the ground a lot faster than any other sci-fi show I've watched, and I'm glad that folks are watching them all.

 

If I didn't watch so many streams, and have so many new things I want to watch, maybe I'd have a chance to re-watch as well. 

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I'm watching Voyager now, and it seems like the writers wanted a similar dynamic, but all the change and conflict that it seems like they're setting up is swept under the rug almost immediately. I'm on season 5 or something, and there has been no payoff. DS9 does actually go somewhere with all of that stuff. The characters and relationships evolve in interesting ways.

I totally agree with your criticism of individual episodes, and it is present in all the series, thanks to the episodic storytelling (even in the semi-serialized DS9), where they fuck around for too much of the episode, and then have to resolve the big monster-of-the-week plot in like two seriously dumb minutes at the end. The added layer of character stuff makes it so much more forgiveable in DS9, though. Even the most pointless episode with the least satisfying A plot will at least have the characters learn something about themselves or each other in the B plot, and it will carry forward, unlike TOS or Voyager. TNG was kind of all over the place in that regard, with some things sticking, and others being reset or forgotten.

That brings me to another criticism, which is that the A plot/B plot structure is way too obvious and slavishly followed, even in DS9, the most daring of the modern shows. I think that's a big problem with everything from TNG on. These Voyager episodes seem like they should be a half hour long; just cut out the whole Neelix's kitchen hijinks subplot, or whatever.

 

The more I read about the production of Voyager, the more I think that show was doomed from the start to be weirdly mediocre. Michael Piller and Jeri Taylor, who ran the show together after Piller's stint during the first two seasons running Deep Space 9, were used to the experienced writers' room of The Next Generation, which they'd also ran together, and didn't see the need to impose a top-down vision on their staff. Rick Berman was distracted by the end of DS9 and had never really been more than just a steady hand on the till anyway. No one was really making sure that there was only one version of Janeway or the rest of the Voyager crew out there, so one writer would submit a script where the captain's latent authoritarian tendencies were pushed to the brink, another would submit a script where the captain was mother to us all, and both would be shot without much effort to reconcile them. By the end of the first season, the show's bible was in tatters because every defining features of the show and its characters had either been contradicted, sometimes multiple times, or flanderized to meaninglessness. Brannon Braga was brought in to fix the mess and, to his credit, the fifth and sixth season are the show's best, although the "dark and sexy" approach that he pioneered there didn't work nearly so well when applied de novo to Enterprise.

 

I wonder how much a franchise history will praise or damn Rick Berman. Dude held the course after Roddenberry's death and presided over the best moments of the best shows, but he seems to have had a custodial mindset that proved disastrous for the franchise once the cache of the big-name shows was spent and the most talented members of the staff were off doing their own things...

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I think that lack of coherency is what scuppered BermanTrek. They'd locked themselves into seven year cycles and the sausage had to be piped out, regardless of the filling. I do think Berman is (correctly) being reappraised more positively, though. Enough time has passed that his interviews have become pretty candid and info and honesty go a long way with fans. He more-or-less oversaw the invention of modern Star Trek! Although, that's not really correct, is it - I guess JJ is modern Trek. Discovery will be modern. My 'modern' trek ended over a decade ago!

 

You mentioned DS9's characters not having pre-established relationships, but that's been the case for all the series except the original, no? I'm a bit fuzzy with Enterprise.

 

I'm currently watching TOS for the first time and it's satisfying to watch the birth of ideas and see how they were picked up and evolved in TNG. I also find myself able to take away the good things and not get bogged down with the rest. Maybe it's age. Perhaps I could watch DS9 & Voyager now and not be put off by the A/B formula being flogged to death. The music is one of the biggest turn-offs for me. I don't have the musical vocabulary to articulate it, but the same handful of chords that play following a revelation, then fade to black, then EXT establishing fade up with Tension Strings #4, cut to promenade, high note change, etc, etc. Man, it's like they're trumpeting the formula! Unscored scenes with characters chatting in the corridors, etc, became refreshing little oases in the symphonic sludge. I know it started on TNG but it didn't have time to get on my nerves there. The interviews with the composers on the TNG blurays were enlightening. They kind of had their hands tied. I'll be interesting to see what Discovery does.

 

Re. writers, I recently finished reading Michael Piller's book about the writing (and rewriting) of Insurrection. It's fascinating and I'd recommend it to anybody with a passing interest in that era of Trek and the influence of Berman and Patrick Stewart on the series and the films.

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I think that lack of coherency is what scuppered BermanTrek. They'd locked themselves into seven year cycles and the sausage had to be piped out, regardless of the filling. I do think Berman is (correctly) being reappraised more positively, though. Enough time has passed that his interviews have become pretty candid and info and honesty go a long way with fans. He more-or-less oversaw the invention of modern Star Trek! Although, that's not really correct, is it - I guess JJ is modern Trek. Discovery will be modern. My 'modern' trek ended over a decade ago!

 

Yeah, I don't think Berman gets enough credit, even from me. The vast majority of interviews in which I've seen him talk were Insurrection and Nemesis-era. He just seems bored and tired in those, it's hard to imagine him as the vital force that basically took a show built around Roddenberry's sometimes-goofy ideals and turned it into a universe where multiple shows with multiple ideologies could be set.

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You mentioned DS9's characters not having pre-established relationships, but that's been the case for all the series except the original, no? I'm a bit fuzzy with Enterprise.

 

TOS and TNG are my main references for Trek, I never got into the later series.  TOS I'm sure was just an established crew.  In my memory, I was thinking that TNG started with mostly Data and Riker being new, but scanning a few character bios, they might have mostly been newer to each other than I thought.  Maybe that still felt different because all the characters still had to exist within a military command framework, which provided a foundation of expectation for relationships.  Whereas in DS9 it feels a lot different since you've got multiple overlapping groups (Starfleet, Bajoran government, and civilians), and even within those you have further divisions in some cases. 

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On TNG, I don't think any characters have a significant history with each other prior to the series, with the exception of Picard with Crusher and Riker with Troi.  Riker and Geordi had served together but weren't familiar with each other until their service on the Enterprise.  Picard has a very brief history with Geordi (he met Geordi once when he was piloting Picard on an inspection; Picard made an off hand remark about something being wrong with the shuttle they were on.  Geordi stayed up all night fixing the defect and impressed Picard enough that he knew he wanted him on his next command).  The final episode of the series shows that Tasha was piloting the shuttle for Picard when he first arrived on the Enterprise but it was their first meeting.  Beyond that, I don't think the characters are really familiar with each other.

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