Spacebase!

[Polish Hill]

I am surprised more cities with reasonable cost of living and great universities don't become bigger hotbeds for development.  Undoubtedly a lot of young developers are moving to places like San Francisco or Austin to work for existing companies or seek out development communities.  My view is probably skewed though since I've always wished Pittsburgh could have another small studio or two sustained by CMU grads in addition to the existing Schell Games.  Ultimately though a lot of students aren't local and are going to wind up in a city far from their alma mater.  

 

Any idea if this Spacebase situation will spark a wave of conversation beyond this forum though?  I haven't seen much about it elsewhere but would be interested on seeing how Early Access games are regarded this early into their Steam implementation.

[JonCole]

There have been posts on sites like PC Gamer, and the Double Fine and Steam community forums for the game have both been pretty active on the issue.

[syntheticgerbil]

Yeah speaking of, the Steam Community forums for Brutal Legend has a super long thread reporting all of the bugs in the port plus the prominent amount of graphical glitches that the console versions did not have. I bought the game on Steam because it was supposed to originally have "enhancements" which I read as higher res textures and possibly nicer lighting to go with the resolution bump, but it's instead pretty inferior. I waited for a patch until earlier this year when I realized that said patch was never coming, so I uninstalled it. It's a shame the game was released with very little support and so glitchy. I already finished it on PS3 with all trophies and was sort of wanting to play through it again on PC, but I will stick with the console version.

[Irishjohn]

Personally I'd love for many companies to get the fuck out of the Bay Area and go somewhere else because it seems pretty ridiculous for them all to be concentrated in one tiny spot considering how big the rest of the U.S. and how many other cities there are. Seems like both employees and investors could stand to benefit financially by getting out of there. When you are a media company who makes profit based on a worldly scale and not locally why stay in an expensive area? Surely there are solutions for things like local networking for the sake of investors.

 

Not to mention the artistic results of just being in a different environment, doing a different thing. It's months old now, but I remember the guys talking about field trips to check out physical locations for possible/planned settings for the game we now know to be Firewatch and chatting about how useful it can be to reach out and touch things and think about them in that way. The same could be said for living in a different city with a different climate and a different ethnic mix, and all kinds of cool things that go into a city being what it is.

[Bjorn]

Well, I've never appreciated smaller companies trotting out the "but it's great to work here!" line as a reason for less pay.

 

I may not have emphasized the most important part of my post, which is that your odds of being able to helm a project as creative lead at DF are likely significantly higher than many other studios. If you believe that you eventually want to be a creative lead, or even go out and start your own studio, DF (again, from a pure outsiders perspective) looks like a much better career bet than just making more money at another studio where you will not have that opportunity.  Based on the variety of funding they get and the documentary, you are also likely to get a much better look at the finances of a game company than at other devs. 

 

I wasn't trying to make a "it's great to work here!" argument, I was trying to say that for future career goals, working at DF may simply be the better path than other, better paying jobs. 

[Irishjohn]

I may not have emphasized the most important part of my post, which is that your odds of being able to helm a project as creative lead at DF are likely significantly higher than many other studios. If you believe that you eventually want to be a creative lead, or even go out and start your own studio, DF (again, from a pure outsiders perspective) looks like a much better career bet than just making more money at another studio where you will not have that opportunity.  Based on the variety of funding they get and the documentary, you are also likely to get a much better look at the finances of a game company than at other devs. 

 

I wasn't trying to make a "it's great to work here!" argument, I was trying to say that for future career goals, working at DF may simply be the better path than other, better paying jobs. 

 

I didn't mean to restrict it to that, either, and I was reacting more to the issue of a smaller company paying people less and the various ways that gets misinterpreted. I wasn't looking to directly criticize your specific comment. The point that you have a genuinely better chance to become a project lead is definitely a strong one.

[Chris]

I may not have emphasized the most important part of my post, which is that your odds of being able to helm a project as creative lead at DF are likely significantly higher than many other studios. If you believe that you eventually want to be a creative lead, or even go out and start your own studio, DF (again, from a pure outsiders perspective) looks like a much better career bet than just making more money at another studio where you will not have that opportunity.  Based on the variety of funding they get and the documentary, you are also likely to get a much better look at the finances of a game company than at other devs. 

 

I wasn't trying to make a "it's great to work here!" argument, I was trying to say that for future career goals, working at DF may simply be the better path than other, better paying jobs.

That is absolutely not how people there see it. DF disproportionately hires senior people who could probably be making more elsewhere, but want to work at Double Fine anyway—this is not because Double Fine is intentionally stingy, but because it is not a AAA studio attached to a large publisher that can afford to pay 60 people above-market-rate salaries. There is not some large collection of mid-sized independent studios that Double Fine is a stepping stone to; you either work at a small indie (or for yourself), or you work at a large AAA studio. There's almost no in-between left. DF is a rare example. It's fairly impressive that DF still exists at all, because despite all of its challenges in recent years, it at least hasn't shut down like most similar companies have. There are Klei and Capy (both of which are smaller than DF) but really not very many other mid-sized independent studios. If you want to work at a place like that, your choices are few.

[Bjorn]

That is absolutely not how people there see it. DF disproportionately hires senior people who could probably be making more elsewhere, but want to work at Double Fine anyway—this is not because Double Fine is intentionally stingy, but because it is not a AAA studio attached to a large publisher that can afford to pay 60 people above-market-rate salaries. There is not some large collection of mid-sized independent studios that Double Fine is a stepping stone to; you either work at a small indie (or for yourself), or you work at a large AAA studio. There's almost no in-between left. DF is a rare example. It's fairly impressive that DF still exists at all, because despite all of its challenges in recent years, it at least hasn't shut down like most similar companies have. There are Klei and Capy (both of which are smaller than DF) but really not very many other mid-sized independent studios. If you want to work at a place like that, your choices are few.

I feel like, once again, I may not have communicated my point well. I wasn't intending to say that DF is intentionally stingy. My assumption is they pay what they can afford to given the revenues they have coming in while also maintaining certain staff levels without doing layoffs. The in-between spot that you describe is really what I was getting at. Along with the culture/environment benefits that come with that are also other professional opportunities that might not be present at the other two ends of the scale (AAA and very small indie), that a place like DF can deliver.

Basically, I was trying to say is that there are valid professional reasons someone would work at DF other than the "It's a great place to work!" reason, even if they are able to make a larger paycheck somewhere else.

[Chris]

I feel like, once again, I may not have communicated my point well. I wasn't intending to say that DF is intentionally stingy. My assumption is they pay what they can afford to given the revenues they have coming in while also maintaining certain staff levels without doing layoffs. The in-between spot that you describe is really what I was getting at. Along with the culture/environment benefits that come with that are also other professional opportunities that might not be present at the other two ends of the scale (AAA and very small indie), that a place like DF can deliver.

Basically, I was trying to say is that there are valid professional reasons someone would work at DF other than the "It's a great place to work!" reason, even if they are able to make a larger paycheck somewhere else.

 

I should have phrased the thing about stinginess better, but yes I was intending to reply to what you're saying. Having worked at Double Fine for two years, after previously being there eight years earlier (with a very high degree of staff retention between those two periods), I do not believe it is true that any significant number of people work at Double Fine as a stepping stone. My point about less competitive salaries was meant to illustrate that people ARE in fact frequently willing to work for less money than they could theoretically make out because of the intangible benefits they get out of the culture of a place, rather than to bulk up a resume or something. DF is the place a lot of people go after the stepping stones, not the other way around.

[Bjorn]

I should have phrased the thing about stinginess better, but yes I was intending to reply to what you're saying. Having worked at Double Fine for two years, after previously being there eight years earlier (with a very high degree of staff retention between those two periods), I do not believe it is true that any significant number of people work at Double Fine as a stepping stone. My point about less competitive salaries was meant to illustrate that people ARE in fact frequently willing to work for less money than they could theoretically make out because of the intangible benefits they get out of the culture of a place, rather than to bulk up a resume or something. DF is the place a lot of people go after the stepping stones, not the other way around.

 

Thanks for the clarification, I am obviously speaking as a pure outsider and just how I perceive what DF as a company has been changing into since the release of Brütal Legend.  Which overall I think is one of the most interesting companies in gaming with their shift to smaller projects. 

[mikemariano]

Off-Topic: I was confused/amused by the main photo in this weekend's Double Fine newsletter:

 

[Jake]

A few of us in the back were being abducted. That was from the Devs & Bevs event at PAX.

[clyde]

More like evidence of time-travel.

[Dewar]

Spacebase released today, which is cool, and it comes with a copy of Hack'n'Slash which is very cool (unless you already own both I guess.) Tonight I'll sit down and play this for the first time since it first hit early access.

 

Edit: I might even stream it

[Bjorn]

Wow, I'm pretty surprised at giving out copies of HnS to owners of Spacebase (and vice versa). That's a pretty standup thing to do given how things shook out.

Any idea how to redeem that? I don't see an obvious option in Steam, though maybe it will just take a few hours to update.

[Dewar]

I assume it's just going to show up. I haven't seen any more details than what the DF-9 home page has on it.

[Dewar]

Streaming my first play at http://www.twitch.tv/dewwar if anyone is interested.

 

Edit: Hmm, that didn't go well. I see what people are saying about the AI not managing very well.

 

My first base ended when I overextended my power, but disabling my defense gun didn't actually restore any power, so then I tried to remove it entirely, and instead drilled a hole out into space.

 

My second base ended because an enemy ship docked with me and then just slowly sent over guys continuously and wore down my defenses. I couldn't get my security guys to explore it like they do derelicts, so there was nothing I could do to stem the tide.

 

My third base ended because, with no warning (not even a ship incoming message,) it suddenly decided to spawn 6 invaders on me at once when other attacks up to that point were 1-2 baddies. My security force had 6 guys in it, but they were easily killed without taking out a single of the invaders.

 

I don't think I will be playing again.

 

Edit2: Found a note that having an old save in the DF9 folder can cause odd behavior, even if you start a completely new base. I'm going to clear out all that stuff and try one more time tomorrow.

 

Edit3: Cleared out my save folder, and yet the game still remembers my last base, however it's before the last disaster. This time, only two raiders got out of the ship which roughed me up pretty bad, but I survived. Still, I just don't have a lot of enthusiasm to continue on.

[MrHoatzin]

Off-Topic: I was confused/amused by the main photo in this weekend's Double Fine newsletter:

 

doublefinenewsletter.jpg

 

I scrolled down half the picture and noted who the mugs belonged to, before continuing to scroll and being startled by the crotch Schafer face. This is the optimal way to internet this picture.

[CollegeBaby]

I scrolled down half the picture and noted who the mugs belonged to, before continuing to scroll and being startled by the crotch Schafer face. This is the optimal way to internet this picture.

 

I noticed that too, and Tim's slightly uneasy face sells it even more.

 

I feel like there must a tumblr of images made funnier by loading slowly in 56kb style.

[chickenmonger]

I ended up buying Spacebase DF-9 on a 33% off sale right in the middle of last month's "Road to 1.0" announcement controversy because, heck, I don't want anyone else telling me what I should or shouldn't do!

 

It was a nice surprise hearing about the Hack 'n' Slash bundle/giveaway. I've had Hack 'n' Slash on my wishlist since release, playing a friend's copy a bit through Steam library sharing. It hasn't shown up in my library yet, however, as of this morning.

 

I played through the DF-9 tutorial last night as my very first intro into the game. Seems fun, and the art and animations are great. I haven't asphixiated anyone yet, so that's a positive.

[Ozzie]

I'm not exactly ecstatic at the thought of diving into the final version of Spacebase DF-9, not because I didn't like the previous ones, but because Hack & Slash is still a buggy mess. Past 1.0 it never received patches. I asked on the forums whether patches are still planned, but I didn't receive an answer, so I guess that's a no. A shame. It seems like Double Fine isn't able to properly finish or support their games anymore. :/

[Thrik]

It's so weird this ended up happening with Spacebase. I generally don't touch in-progress simulation/management games because they tend to have horrendous issues that make it unworthwhile. But Spacebase is exactly the kind of game I'd love to play, so I've been waiting for it to get into a good state — much like I've been doing with Prison Architect, which by the sounds of is it getting seriously awesome now.

 

Is the problem here just how Double Fine chose to fund this game? It seems like it'd have potentially been way better off if it had a slightly more conventional development cycle, even if the funding came from a Kickstarter. I applaud Double Fine for experimenting, but the whole early access thing has always seemed a bit shit to me. A lot of people just don't want to play a WIP, so if you're relying on that then you're going to run into trouble.

 

I'm sure there's much more to it, but it makes me so sad to have a game that looks so brilliant dangled in front of me and then effectively taken away (if reviews of its current and now final state are anything to go by), especially when it looks like a game that'd do really well if it'd been released to the masses in a more complete form.

[Twig]

I think the problem is Double Fine went into this expecting to make a constant stream of money from early access sales, not realizing that Dwarf Fortress - the most popular and long-lasting game in this specific genre - makes like a couple thousand a month off voluntary donations (data NOT RELIABLE: comes from the like three times total I researched a specific month during my Dorftress lovefest a few years ago). Prison Architect seems to be doing well, but it's the exception, not the rule.

 

They also put out updates Basically Never after the first few months, which is why I ended up almost forgetting about it until it was announced that development was going to end. Prison Architect puts out updates on a monthly basis, I think? Or near to it. Regular enough that I'd be surprised if I went a couple months without seeing anything. I'm like you: I looooove these kinds of games, and was just waiting and waiting for it to get better, because I KNEW it would. Well, I was wrong. Alas.

[Dewar]

Dwarf Fortress donations are reported month over month by the dev and they hover between 3k and 5k generally, with spikes when new releases come out. 

 

I played a little more this morning and I think I figured out my problems with this game. The main form of adversity (besides bugs and fighting poor AI) is raiders, but there aren't really any options to improve your fighting. Turrets don't work, and apparently cause hull breaches when they do. There aren't any weapons cabinets or armor or anything to put on the wall to help your security forces out. Security skill seems to make a small difference at best. There might be some research, but it takes so dang long to get the basic needs met that I haven't had time to build a lab. Combat in this game basically boils down to:

 

1) Set everyone in the base to security

2) Set a station point where you're getting breached

3) Pray that your guys somehow manage to get there at the same time instead of filing in one by one and dying

4) Fiddle with the job settings to try and get everyone back to their old jobs

5) Get attacked again before you get any real building done, and repeat

 

And that's all on Low and Semi-Low danger levels. I'd fear what it's like to play on higher threat areas. I'll poke at it one more time tonight to see if I can at least get one of every room type running so I can experience the full breadth of game mechanics, but I am not hopeful.

[clyde]

With the raids, is your entire population getting wiped out? If not, then I would assume the design-intent is to create some drama that forwards an emergent narrative. I like the idea of losing a quarter of my crew on a regular basis. But of course if your entire population is destroyed, you'd be essentially seeing the same portion of the game over and over.