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Erkki

Building a home theater...

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So with the looming Steam Boxes and new consoles and stuff, I started looking into what kind of home theater setup I should build (currently I have nothing). My living room is laid out so that there's really only one 2.7m walI for a screen and I can't really move furniture around much, as the corner couch fits perfectly into a room corner. If I want to get comfortable, I will be sitting 3.5m or so from the screen, and maybe at an angle. 1.9m if I want to get close, but less comfortable.

 

At 3.5m, I think the screen should be fairly large, maybe even 70". However, TV-s of 60" and up are really fucking expensive (one could probably build two high-end computers for the price) -- why can't I just buy a "dumb" huge screen without all the 3D and "Smart TV" crap which I'm probably never going to use?

 

Are projectors a valid choice nowadays? The room is lit by the sun during evenings (at least in the summer, but most of the year it gets dark relatively early), but I've been thinking about adding some thick curtains.

 

One thing I worry about with a projector is that the only sensible place to put it is in the ceiling opposite to the wall where the other hardware is likely going to be, but I don't want to keep lots of wires hanging or go through the bother with putting wires into the walls. With a LCD or plasma screen, the wires would mostly be hidden behind a TV stand or something.

 

PS. The theater will mostly be used for gaming, maybe a bit of surfing the internet, music, movies, pirated TV series. I'm not going to watch a lot of TV (but I want the option, so I also need to connect a DigiTV box to the screen).

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I generally recommend Samsung and Panasonic plasmas. Have had excellent experiences with both, and all of ye olde problems with plasma are pretty much gone. Only disadvantage is they're heavy as all hell at high screen sizes.

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I generally recommend Samsung and Panasonic plasmas. Have had excellent experiences with both, and all of ye olde problems with plasma are pretty much gone. Only disadvantage is they're heavy as all hell at high screen sizes.

All the cheaper (50") plasmas seem to be 1024x768, though. Maybe that's enough for 50"?

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All the cheaper (50") plasmas seem to be 1024x768, though. Maybe that's enough for 50"?

 

Define "cheaper." I have a Panasonic ST30 that I love except for the heat and the buzz, both of which no one else has been able to notice, so I'm just special. it's full 1080p and a great piece of hardware, but it was a steal for $900. I don't think you can expect anything cheaper.

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Yeah, by cheaper I mean a price around there, maybe even a bit more expensive.

 

Actually, now that I think about it, a projector in the ceiling would be pretty close to a wall that is easy to poke holes into, and the box where all the network wires in the apartment run together is basically on the other side of that wall. I could also put consoles, computers, TV boxes next to that wall (also next to couch), and not where the plugs are now (in the opposite wall where image is desired). Audio cables would be the main problem then, probably, but I guess wireless or network solutions for speakers are possible?

 

And with a projector, I could get almost a 120" image on that wall (but maybe that's even too big for 3.5 m sitting distance?)

 

How does a projector's image quality compare to plasma or LCD TVs?

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Yeah, by cheaper I mean a price around there, maybe even a bit more expensive.

 

Actually, now that I think about it, a projector in the ceiling would be pretty close to a wall that is easy to poke holes into, and the box where all the network wires in the apartment run together is basically on the other side of that wall. I could also put consoles, computers, TV boxes next to that wall (also next to couch), and not where the plugs are now (in the opposite wall where image is desired). Audio cables would be the main problem then, probably, but I guess wireless or network solutions for speakers are possible?

 

And with a projector, I could get almost a 120" image on that wall (but maybe that's even too big for 3.5 m sitting distance?)

 

How does a projector's image quality compare to plasma or LCD TVs?

 

According to the rubrics I used buying my TV, anything larger than 85" is going to be wasted at that distance. Even 85" is pushing it a bit.

 

As for your other question, projector images are extremely dependent on the material onto which you're projecting and the light situation in the room. Honestly, it's more vulnerable than either a plasma or an LCD to those issues, plus you'll be paying pretty much the same as a real TV for a nice one, so I don't know if I'd recommend getting one. Plasma has the best image, at least in terms of response and color profile, but LCD can have a "cleaner" look that performs better in adverse lighting conditions. I'd just recommend going to your local big-box electronics store and making a list of what speaks to you, then going home to research.

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I used to work with a guy who was the former manager of a local theater. When they installed a 3D projector in one of the theaters, they had to replace the screen and get rid of the old one. He cut a huge piece of it out, took it home, and used it for his projection setup. It was beautiful.

 

 

I've always wanted a LaCie LaCinema as an all-purpose device for streaming or watching media off of storage (2TB onboard!). It's super sexy and it doesn't seem to have any of the problems with filetypes or subtitles that the Western Digital box I have now does.

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Hmm... I'm actually liking the projector idea more and more, except for one thing*. As I said, I was planning to get thick curtains anyway, so I could make the room dim when I'm using the screen. Also if I believe this guy then projectors can have better picture quality than large TVs.

 

I looked some more at TV prices and the size I would be willing to buy at the current prices is 50-55". We have a similar sized LCD TV at the office so maybe I'll try it out for gaming to see if that would work for me at that sitting distance -- in my last place, I had a 32" TV and had to wear glasses to read texts in games when I was just 1 or 1.5m away. I'd prefer if I could play without needing glasses.

 

If I really want a big screen, projector seems to be much cheaper (as I understand a sub-1000$ projector could go over 100" with good brightness, which is twice the size of the TV I could get at a similar price). I wish I had a friend with a projector setup so I could go and see myself what kind of screen size is good at what distance. (Note that I could also be further than 3.5m if I was at an angle). A projector also has the advantage that the screen size is adjustable.

 

If I bought a TV I would have to put all consoles and stuff somewhere near the TV and I would have there at least 4-5 devices that would want a network connection. Which means I'd have to put a network hub there as well, as there is only one wire coming in. It might be much smarter to place all the devices in a less visible area, at the wall next to where the all the network wires come in anyway and where I could also connect the projector.

 

* A big problem with a projector setup might be things like the PS Eye or Kinect. I'm not sure how much I would use those anyway, but they seem to require lighting conditions opposite to what a projector wants. On a similar note, with a projector people couldn't say, play a board game and someone else use the screen at the same time.

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This is a good projector website, I know Robert Heron from Rev3's HD Nation show reads and references it quite often:

 

http://www.projectorcentral.com/

 

HD Nation is just generally a good show to watch if you're at all interested in this kind of stuff, from what blu-rays make good reference movies, TV calibration, good cable tuners, and all of that other junk.

 

Seems like you're set on a projector, so best to do plenty of research ahead of time. I don't know a whole lot about them, personally, but I do know that there's definitely a gap in what projector enthusiasts think are worthwhile vs what you might determine from specs. Namely, sub-$3000 projectors are generally put in a ghetto by comparison to more expensive models. That said, the sub-$3000 section of AVS Forum was quite active last time I looked because frankly not a ton of people have $3000 to blow on one piece of home theater equipment.

 

I've heard a lot of good things about Optoma and Epson, especially in the budget realm.

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Yeah, I got really exited about the projector idea yesterday, and read reviews until 5 in the morning. Seems that sub-$3000 each projector has some problem. The BenQ W1070 is well rated, but it's DLP and might have rainbow effects. I'm not sure if those effects are noticeable to me, bother me or not. I'm not going to spend over $3000 right now, no way. So if I will not find a projector that satisfies me at around $1000-$1500 now, I will likely just get a TV and think about a projector in the future.

 

I'm planning to build this stuff at the end of the year, so I still have plenty of time for research.

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The Wirecutter's step down pick is also on that page and is currently running for about $1500 from various retailers here in the US. Might be worth investigating.

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I've read (or skimmed) quite a few reviews now and there seem to be a few non-obvious things worth noting with the kind of use I want it for:

 

* some projectors have high input lag, which may be unsuitable for gaming (I believe 30-40 ms would be ok, but above that maybe not?)

* some projectors have no or limited lens shift, which limits the placement opportunities (if you don't want to resort to digital keystone correction which produces for non-pixel-perfect image). I want to ceiling-mount it pretty high, maybe even so that the projected image is vertically fully below the lens, but not all projectors allow that.

 

This might be almost as important as good brightness and constrast and image quality. The Wirecutter's step down pick (Epson 3020) has input lag of around 100 ms (6 frames), and the top pick has relatively high input lag as well, I think.

 

I might have to be more flexible with the placement and put the projector lower, since it seems many around the $1000-$1500 price don't have a large lens shift.

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I don't know much about projectors, but I echo JonCole about Samsung and Panasonic plasmas. Panasonic TX-P50ST60Y is a really good TV, and at least here in Scandinavia it's often the subject of price wars between retailers. It's often considerably cheaper than the more advanced model (VT60Y) or the bigger version (65ST60Y).

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I have a 58" Panasonic Viera plasma tv and I couldn't be happier with it. It really is a good tv and I've never had a single problem with it (unlike my stupid fucking Philips 50" plasma).

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So far two models have caught my eye:

 

The BenQ W1070 seems excellent for the price (~1000$), but I'm really afraid of the Rainbow Effect of DLP-s. I don't know how to test myself for it -- I doubt I could get a demo anywhere in Tallinn. Or maybe I could, it seems to be a popular model here judging by one price comparison site. But even if I'm not susceptible, that doesn't mean any of my guests wouldn't be.

 

The Epson HC8530 is a bit more expensive (~1300$), but it has very low input lag (17ms vs 24ms of W1070, both are good) and way better lens shift so placement should be really flexible. On the other hand, it is quite old by now and seems people have been receiving defective units with misaligned color panels or something. It also doesn't do 3D, which I thought I didn't care about, but as soon as I'm thinking about not having the option, I suddenly want the option to be there.

 

Seems like both of these may be risky. The Epson is not sold locally, though, which almost makes it out of the question (I don't want any hassle with overseas seller if it turns out I get a defective unit). So at the moment I'm seriously considering the W1070 or similar, and might take a risk with the rainbow effect... However, even at the relatively low price for a projector, it's still a fucking lot of money to risk on buying something crap -- we don't have very good return policies here AFAIK.

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So far two models have caught my eye:

 

The BenQ W1070 seems excellent for the price (~1000$), but I'm really afraid of the Rainbow Effect of DLP-s. I don't know how to test myself for it -- I doubt I could get a demo anywhere in Tallinn. Or maybe I could, it seems to be a popular model here judging by one price comparison site. But even if I'm not susceptible, that doesn't mean any of my guests wouldn't be.

 

The Epson HC8530 is a bit more expensive (~1300$), but it has very low input lag (17ms vs 24ms of W1070, both are good) and way better lens shift so placement should be really flexible. On the other hand, it is quite old by now and seems people have been receiving defective units with misaligned color panels or something. It also doesn't do 3D, which I thought I didn't care about, but as soon as I'm thinking about not having the option, I suddenly want the option to be there.

 

Seems like both of these may be risky. The Epson is not sold locally, though, which almost makes it out of the question (I don't want any hassle with overseas seller if it turns out I get a defective unit). So at the moment I'm seriously considering the W1070 or similar, and might take a risk with the rainbow effect... However, even at the relatively low price for a projector, it's still a fucking lot of money to risk on buying something crap -- we don't have very good return policies here AFAIK.

 

Yeah, this is what I always hear from people who try and get a projector solution for their home theater. For $1000, you could get the 50" Panasonic ST60 plasma, which is the newer version of what I bought a few years back and what other people here have used. If size is what you're looking for, a projector is going to be the most cost-efficient option, no matter the price. But it sounds like it's not just size that you're looking for? Maybe you could rank the different aspects of a home theater experience in the order that they matter to you and see which solution answer the most of them.

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Hmm... yeah, maybe I should make a ranking of qualities I'm looking for. Size is important, because I really want to be able to play games and even use a computer without needing glasses (my eyes are -1.0 or so, and as I said with a 32" TV I needed glasses even from 1 meter away). I don't know, the 50" seems kind of small from 3.5 meters, but I should (and will) test this in the office where we have a similar sized TV and about the same viewing distance. I could of course also get closer to the TV for gaming (I have bean bags), but I'd prefer the couch.

 

Image quality is also important and I don't really have experience to understand the difference between the quality of a 50" plasma TV and 100" image from a projector. There seem to be so many aspects to image quality (contrast, black levels or whatever, color temperature, brightness, image retention, input lag, etc.) that some things seem impossible to compare.

 

It should also be flexible and good for gaming, movies, computer usage etc.

 

Also, it would be fun and profitable to actually spend some time designing and building a proper theater system. With a projector there are more tinkering opportunities, I'll have a feeling that I "built it myself" not just "bought this". I'm not sure if I'm going to live in this apartment for long, so if I decide to sell it in a few years, a good built-in home theater system could only increase the value (by more than its cost), I think. So the system should also look good/impressive.

 

And I also already mentioned the price ranges I can afford, so keeping to the price range is important as well as I don't have a lot of liquidity now. If I buy stuff locally, though, I could pay in installments and go for some pricier components if I really find a good justification.

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For what it's worth, the Panasonic ST60 is actually a series of televisions. The most budget friendly (under or around 1000 USD) is the aforementioned 50" model. There are other models going up in increments of 5" up to 65", also increasing in price. The 65" model is about double the price or so of the 50" model.

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Hmm, they don't seem to sell them locally much. I see ST60 42" 55" and 65". The 55" already costs more than I'd pay for a TV (lowest 1225€). TX-P50XT50E seems more affordable (725€)

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I've gone through this process a few times in the past and I always landed on plasma tvs as the best solution (for my needs). The reasons plasma won over LED/LCD for me are:

  1. Faster refresh rate than LED/LCD by a lot. I think a plasma tv typically has a 600Hz refresh rate compared to the 120 Hz or 240 Hz from the others. It has spoiled me though so now I can't stand to watch LED/LCDs because the image looks super weird to me at the lower refresh rate. Although I haven't spent much time watching any at 240Hz so that could be much less noticeable there.
  2. Darker blacks. Plasma tvs will typically give you much darker blacks. I prefer this over the brighter whites you get from LED/LCD. However, if you have a really bright room you can't really appreciate this as much.
  3. Cost. Probably not the case as much any more but when I bought my last tv, plasma was considerably cheaper than the other technologies.
  4. Plasmas have been around longer than many of the other technologies. Something about this just makes me feel more comfortable knowing that they have been around long enough for so many kinks to be worked out. Burn-in is no longer an issue, they don't produce as much heat as they used to, and they are more power efficient than they used to be, among other improvements. I like technology that has been around for awhile and is still considered viable.

The reasons I ruled out projection:

  1. Light control. I don't have anywhere to put it where I can keep the room dark enough
  2. Bulb replacement. I don't like the idea of having to spend $300+ on a new bulb every 3000-5000 hours. If they start using LED bulbs this could become a moot point though.

All that being said, I totally want to set up a home theater room in my next house with a projector and a big ass screen. For me, the bigger the screen the better so I would be willing to suck it up and deal with having to replace bulbs to get that nice big screen.

 

Also, I think one difference to consider with a 50" vs 100" screen is that the pixel density would be much greater on a 50" screen. I've heard some people argue that you don't get the full benefit of 1080p unless you are viewing on a very large screen because our eyes can't distinguish them as much on a smaller screen. Personally though, I feel like I appreciate 1080p on a smaller screen more than on a larger screen. It could be voodoo but I feel like having all those pixels crammed into a smaller screen makes my eyes happier. And yes, I know this contradicts my love for big screens.

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I just saw a site bring out "optimal" viewing distances for each screen size, and they separated distances for "HD signal" and "Full HD signal".

 

Even for 65" the distance for Full HD was only 2.1 - 2.4 m (HD 4.3 - 5 m)

For 50": Full HD 1.6 - 1.9m (HD 3.3 - 3.8 m)

 

That's damn close, IMHO. Also, wikipedia lists similar numbers: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Optimum_HDTV_viewing_distance

 

This convinces me even more that a projector might be a better idea.

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I just saw a site bring out "optimal" viewing distances for each screen size, and they separated distances for "HD signal" and "Full HD signal".

 

Even for 65" the distance for Full HD was only 2.1 - 2.4 m (HD 4.3 - 5 m)

For 50": Full HD 1.6 - 1.9m (HD 3.3 - 3.8 m)

 

That's damn close, IMHO. Also, wikipedia lists similar numbers: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Optimum_HDTV_viewing_distance

 

This convinces me even more that a projector might be a better idea.

 

I think those are a bit aggressive, most places seem to think that 50" is best viewed from two to four meters away. Still, I think it's best if you see it in action. Is there any big-box store nearby you can go to that just lets you look at the products we're talking about?

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There are stores with walls of TVs, sure, but I don't know any that have projectors. The projectors are mainly sold for offices here. I just found a few companies quite near me that have the BenQ W1070 in stock, though, e-mailed and asked if I could get a demo (they advertised personal approach to customer relations :)).

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