Sign in to follow this  
Rob Zacny

Episode 228: A New Universe

Recommended Posts

I have to admit I find the idea of this type of game with a science fiction theme to be a compelling idea, though it would take a lot of work to make it feel authentic and different.  I don't think I'd be interested if it was just a coat of paint to make Space Europe.

 

Interestingly, though, when you blow things up to galactic scale, you run into some of the same kinds of problems they had in the pre-modern era; the speed of communications and travel make it hard to maintain direct control over distant elements of your empire, including your generals.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Knowing what we know about time dialation and the vastness of space I wonder how feasible a space empire would even be for humans who have such a comparatively short lifespan. It would be totally fascinating to see a game that grappled with those issues instead of hand wave them away...

 

I haven't picked up EU4 yet because money is a little tight at the moment, but I can't wait to check it out. It sounds like they really fixed a lot of issues that have made me felt lukewarm about Paradox games. I'm not convinced this one will make me a convert, but it at least sounds like they went in a really cool direction.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You know, Paradox play around a bit with the lag-time between decisions and execution. Diplomats and merchants take longer to get where they are going depending on how far it is, but by and large everything happens instantly with a button press.

 

And I think that's almost how it has to be. Time-dilation in sci-fi can be really interesting, as anyone who read The Forever War can attest, but in a game, it couldn't just be another detail layered into the design. The game would pretty much HAVE to be about the passage of time, I think. Ditto EU IV can't really model the delay in information reaching the capital without shattering the simplicity they've worked really hard to attain. But I WOULD love to see a game that, right from the start, was about the difficulty of managing sprawling empires against the constraints of communications and travel technology.

 

Again, I'd refer back to the show we did on A Few Acres of Snow, which the is about the French and Indian War but which the designer admitted was envisioned more as being about interstellar conflict. That game is entirely about anticipation and lag between intent and effect. And it's one of my favorites.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I've got a design in the pipe dealing with that on a smaller scale; once the current project breaks the surface I'm hoping to be able to talk about it more, but it's an idea I find fascinating as well.  Unless you want to accept some sort of super-advanced physics, there's more than a year of one-way communications lag between here and the nearest star, which (by analogy) actually puts things more or less back to the early colonial days in terms of the pressures placed on command structures and logistics.  You can't just send a boat full of troops to Alpha Centauri when you hear the colony has risen in revolt; the war will be over before the troops get halfway there.

 

Even with magic physics and faster than light travel, I think there's a lot of interesting game design territory in communications and travel lag time, especially if they differ.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I've got a design in the pipe dealing with that on a smaller scale; once the current project breaks the surface I'm hoping to be able to talk about it more, but it's an idea I find fascinating as well.  Unless you want to accept some sort of super-advanced physics, there's more than a year of one-way communications lag between here and the nearest star, which (by analogy) actually puts things more or less back to the early colonial days in terms of the pressures placed on command structures and logistics.  You can't just send a boat full of troops to Alpha Centauri when you hear the colony has risen in revolt; the war will be over before the troops get halfway there.

 

It reminds me of a sci-fi book I read recently by Ken MacLeod called Learning the World. The book itself was pretty mediocre, but it had a pretty well-considered take on mass colonization via generation ships and slower-than-light travel. More relevantly, the inciting incident is the discovery of intelligent alien life by a colony crew from a star eight lightyears out. MacLeod does a good job showing how a ship like that would have to spend the eight years preparing for all scenarios, in order to act upon the one the reply actually recommends once the sixteen years have elapsed. I thought it was very intriguing, would love a game on it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Great podcast!

 

I am enjoying EU IV and agree almost everything said, and just like to add a few things that I think that where huge improvements:

 

1) It´s just me or the AI is much better using armies? playing as Castille on Ironman mode I am impressed that during the two wars which I fought to help England, alongside Portugal and Aragon, my allies maneuvered their armies to my aid in quite impressive ways, they really came to my help (and not just stand and watched as happen in many games) upon see me in danger, but I noticed also they avoid risking their armies too.
2) Talking about diplomats: I don´t know exact why, but I loved that now they have names and you send them way or wait them back. Another amazing thing was the Improve Relations option which save you from the cicle of giving gifts one after another.

3) Sieges mechanics are so much clear now and much more interesting to see, I remember playing EU I and EU II and never get how exactly sieges worked.

4) Battles feel much more decisive, I hadn´t a single ping-pong battle, except when my army could not get the enemy forces in the right time, meaning they managed to recover a bit of morale to retreat again.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Did you stick with EU3 through all its expansions? I feel like some of these improvements, like army management, showed up by the end. But they are more effective AI allies now. And the retreat mechanic really made wars feel less like a game of whack a mole. Siege is much clearer now too, you're right That's nice to be able to see what controls the progress of a siege.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Did you stick with EU3 through all its expansions? I feel like some of these improvements, like army management, showed up by the end. But they are more effective AI allies now. And the retreat mechanic really made wars feel less like a game of whack a mole. Siege is much clearer now too, you're right That's nice to be able to see what controls the progress of a siege.

I start EU3 a little late (I begin with EU1 and EU2 cd versions, only bit later with digital download I got EU3) , with some expansions already, but you right, remembering now, the AI by the last expansion was better. Another thing I noticed yesterday, France and its allies marching their armies in one massive stack (maybe its the annex army from CK2? haven´t found how do this yet in EU4). (I found out, still is cool to see the AI using it)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I love your Sino-Turkish war story, Rob, but you know about ticking war goals, right? Once you achieve the listed war goal at the top of the war summary screen, you get +0.20 a month to your war score. Generally speaking, grabbing the war goal and whatever else you want, then camping on it while the AI's armies trickle in and rack up their own war exhaustion, is the best way to win a war against a big power. But your way is more fun.

 

I also think that Europa Universalis IV is an achievement. It combines everything that was good about the multiple expansions of the previous game into a single whole that interacts with itself almost flawlessly. It does not feel like there is anything missing, and unlike much of the Paradox forum crowd, I don't think the monarch points are weak linchpin for that design. What I do take issue with is how monarch points come to be. In Europa Unversalis III, technology, from which came everything else in the game except monarch stat modifiers and slider bumps, was driven by the economy, which was a daunting proposition, but at least it was very responsive to player input. In EU4, they've added a second resource, the otherwise great monarch points, that gates access to money and is entirely based on the random number generator. Sure, you can alleviate it somewhat by hiring advisors, the availability of which is also entirely random, but there's the ugly truth that a 0/0/0 monarch will make half the points of even an average 3/3/3 monarch, all things being equal, and the only way around that is either to stock up points or make your heir into a military leader and start a war with someone big (the latter is actually quite effective, if gamey). To compound this, on top of all the other bonuses "lucky nations" get, they are incapable of rolling less than a 4 in any stat. Watch, the 0/0/0 monarchs that England and Spain start with in 1444 are the only ones they'll ever get. The Paradox forum argument is that it helps produce historical outcomes, but it's really demoralizing to be behind in all tech, no matter what, because certain AI nations get free points.

 

And I like coalitions, but if you blob slowly enough to get big before coalitions start forming, they become a great way to trap your neighbors in wars that ruin them. As Vijayanagar in India, I've wrecked the Ottomans and Ming because they refuse to leave the coalition against me and get dragged into every little war I start. They just don't have the manpower to put down the war exhaustion revolts. But I heard from Wiz, who works on AI at Paradox now, that they're trying to find ways to balance the AI between the two current extremes of "joins a coalition, then leaves before the five-year truce is up" and "in a coalition forever, won't leave for its own good." That's the new Paradox for you, much more responsive.

 

 

Oh, and don't play Japan yet. There's several bugs, including infinite Catholic rebel stacks and passive vassal AI, that makes Japan literally unplayable. Give it a patch or two first.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Great show with a lot of enthusiasm. EU4 is a game thats easy to be enthusiastic about.

 

I'm looking forward to people uploading their best and most interesting CK2 saves for general use.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this