Jake

Idle Thumbs 119: You, Fisher

Recommended Posts

Interesting that Kirk pointed out how stealth games are a big thing right now. I think a lot of them have a stealth theme but usually aren't about avoiding conflict in game play.

 

I think even Dishonored's really terrible at being a stealth game. It makes you so proficient in combat and gives you so many tools with no other role than inflicting harm. It seems so at odds with itself, presenting you with the framework of a stealth game and giving you every opportunity and excuse to not play it as one.

It's a stealth game that only works as a stealth game through self-imposed challenged, a player willingly going along with the charade. Doesn't that kind of make it an awful stealth game?

I mean, and that's virtually every modern stealth game.

 

Also, Keith David as Keith David in a video game talking about how Keith David got into voice acting in video games is the first thing anyone has said about Saint's Row 4 that sounds like it'd be an entertaining game.

It's even better when you consider that Keith David played a major character in the first Saint's Row.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Doesn't that kind of make it an awful stealth game?

 

It's a pretty good "feel like an awesome stealthy-man" game, but not a really a stealth game itself.

 

I might just be being semantic though.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

At least part of the appeal of stealth games is that they tie into a voyeuristic power fantasy; people enjoy the illicit thrill of being where they're not supposed to be, seeing and hearing things they're not supposed to see and hear, and having power over the people they're stalking. Dishonored nails that voyeuristic thrill, even though Sno's right that mechanically it doesn't insist on stealth or even really encourage it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Lots of good stuff discussed in this cast.

 

I haven't played it yet, but SR4 not only has Keith David as himself, the character creator it has 7 voice options: Male 1, 2, and 3, Female 1, 2, and 3 and lastly, Nolan North, which I think is a perfect joke option for a main character voice. In SR3 the seventh voice was nothing but zombie grunts. I found the humor and self awareness in SR3 rarely got into corny or eye-rolling territory. It seemed like it always added its dumb shit in order to make the game more fun. Like I'll be the first to admit the infamous dildo bat is fucking stupid, but in game, the quality of the animation/sound design of the thing made smashing dudes with it soooo satisfying. I couldn't help but use it in spite of myself.

 

As far as Dishonored's voice acting went, I remember being intrigued by all the relatively high profile talent they brought in only to be amazed at the terribly wooden performances they all gave, especially Brad Dourif, cause that guy can ham it up like a champion (in a good way). What I'm trying to say here is you guys should watch Deadwood. As far as it being called a stealth game, it is in the same way that something like Deus Ex is. It allows whatever playstyle you want, which doesn't necessarily mean the stealth element is bad, just not required.

 

http://www.gonehomegame.com/ghost/

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Lots of good stuff discussed in this cast.

 

I haven't played it yet, but SR4 not only has Keith David as himself, the character creator it has 7 voice options: Male 1, 2, and 3, Female 1, 2, and 3 and lastly, Nolan North, which I think is a perfect joke option for a main character voice. In SR3 the seventh voice was nothing but zombie grunts. I found the humor and self awareness in SR3 rarely got into corny or eye-rolling territory. It seemed like it always added its dumb shit in order to make the game more fun. Like I'll be the first to admit the infamous dildo bat is fucking stupid, but in game, the quality of the animation/sound design of the thing made smashing dudes with it soooo satisfying. I couldn't help but use it in spite of myself.

 

Personally never cared that much for that bat myself, but what I like about the SR series is how it deliberately maintains the seriousness of the narrative despite the actual absurdities of the situation/action. It's pretty similar to The Venture Bros cartoon in that regard with its whole codifying of the guild of calamitous intent and arching. From the outside it's quantifiably absurd, but within it's life and death to those participating . Also I think one has to give props to the writing and voice acting and the way the in situ cinematics are handled and how much more naturalistic they look compared to other games that operate in the same wheelhouse (mass effect, the witcher, GTA) regardless of how you've personally designed your character.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This was a great cast, I really enjoy when guests are on because they often bring an unreserved enthusiasm for GAMES (write large).

 

re: Modern AAA "stealth". I think modern big-time games have gone large on spectacle, but haven't moved the needle much on AI or significant mechanics, and streamlined level design around that. I'm thinking of the "fps map design 1993 vs 2010" image.  Low impact stealth killing is an effective way to mask  a lack broad world interaction and sophisticated systems. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

As someone who has a 3DS sitting right next to me at work, it is really fantastic to hear someone talking about Mario & Luigi Dream Team on the cast. The 3DS is easily my favorite video game console, and it's sad that you guys, who I respect in a HUGE WAY because you guys are very thoughtful and precise about your video game thoughts and criticism (well, most of the time) have kind of Formulated Opinions on some things (like current Nintendo games) and those opinions are strangely off-the-mark to what I've experienced. It's GREAT, though, that you can have someone like Kirk on, who did an admirable job trying to convince you both of the merits of the 3DS! It's real, real good. As I've gone on to be an adult, I don't really have time to sit in front of a TV or a computer screen and play video games, but I do have time when I'm fitting surface brightness profiles or whatnot and I can just pick up and play a Crashmo level, or beat a level in Super Mario 3D Land. 

 

Jake. 

 

Get a 3DS. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Robin Hood's principles of stealth -- it's not about being unseen, it's about punching out and tying up every single person who stumbles across your heap of punched-out, tied-up bodies. If a tree falls in the forest and crushes all witnesses, that's a stealthy tree.

 

qypv.png

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think execution-free movesets are an interesting and generally unexplored concept. I do think execution comes up as skill most fighters have, but it would be interesting to explore games where reading the opponent and decision making are the main skills being examined. Divekick is a good example of an execution-free moveset game.

 

What is it usually?

The file I got was by artist "Idle Thumbs Staff, instead of "Idle Thumbs" for the majority of recent releases. The Album/Podcast title was "Idle Thumbs Podcast" rather than "Idle Thumbs".

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

IIRC, the email defending the use of complicated fighting game controls made an argument like, "If all of the inputs were the same, you couldn't have characters whose moves mostly involve walking backwards or characters whose moves mostly chain off of successful defenses". And the email from this week was asking something like, "Couldn't you still have the inputs be simple two-button deals, but have the effects of the moves be as wildly different as in a Street Fighter or somesuch?".

 

I thought the question about "Are macros acceptable in fighting games?" was a great one, and a good one to ask when trying to discern whether someone is in the "complex controls are unnecessary", "complex controls are a necessary evil", or "complex controls make it more fun regardless" camp.

 

I was the guy who approached most non-Smash fighting games by picking a favorite character and memorizing a single, generally useful move for them. So though I think I understand the question, I also have no credibility to answer it. :P

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Damn, the podcast I downloaded is busted, and stopped playing at the 50 minute mark. Bummer.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

IIRC, the email defending the use of complicated fighting game controls made an argument like, "If all of the inputs were the same, you couldn't have characters whose moves mostly involve walking backwards or characters whose moves mostly chain off of successful defenses". And the email from this week was asking something like, "Couldn't you still have the inputs be simple two-button deals, but have the effects of the moves be as wildly different as in a Street Fighter or somesuch?".

 

I thought the question about "Are macros acceptable in fighting games?" was a great one, and a good one to ask when trying to discern whether someone is in the "complex controls are unnecessary", "complex controls are a necessary evil", or "complex controls make it more fun regardless" camp.

 

I was the guy who approached most non-Smash fighting games by picking a favorite character and memorizing a single, generally useful move for them. So though I think I understand the question, I also have no credibility to answer it. :P

I'm a pretty middling/low-end player when it comes to fighting games, so somebody could probably come along and tell me that i'm full of shit, but the way i see is that a lot of the input requirements generally force you into taking up certain postures in a match. The clearest example is that it's exceedingly difficult to play a rushdown style with a charge character, since you're constantly required to be holding back, which immediately puts you into that defensive posture. (You can alleviate that somewhat by buffering the input inside of other attacks, but it's still a factor.)

If you could just hit down and A to break out Guile's sonic boom, you'd be playing a fundamentally different game.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm a pretty middling/low-end player when it comes to fighting games, so somebody could probably come along and tell me that i'm full of shit, but the way i see is that a lot of the input requirements generally force you into taking up certain postures in a match. The clearest example is that it's exceedingly difficult to play a rushdown style with a charge character, since you're constantly required to be holding back, which immediately puts you into that defensive posture. (You can alleviate that somewhat by buffering the input inside of other attacks, but it's still a factor.)

If you could just hit down and A to break out Guile's sonic boom, you'd be playing a fundamentally different game.

 

Good points, though it occurs to me the "constantly holding back" thing could be implemented with a simple control scheme by making a character whose best signature moves are "back+A" and "back+B" and slight variations on that. The main problem Smash Brothers has with something like that isn't because of its simplified attack buttons, but rather that it's more than 1v1 and so there's not really a concept of "back" in the game. There's a standard back-attack when you're jumping I think, but usually holding back will just turn you around. I wonder how many other differences between Smash Brothers and the more classic fighting games are actually more about Smash being designed for four fighters, and not so much about the control scheme...hmm.

Hmm!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Barely related to anything, but speaking of strange 3d training programs... (skip to about 45s to get past all the menu screens)

 

 

(I dunno if this is an actually-used thing or just a demo; I stumbled across it while looking for Unity tutorials and didn't realize at first that it was all about HVACR technician-ing...I clicked to the middle and thought it was a game about being in a neighborhood that was so detailed that it simply allowed for taking weird devices out of a van and sticking them on people's houses, among many other things you might want to do. A few moments later, I kind of thought it was a first-person Hitman thing and all of the detailed hose-connecting was like the "Receiver" of setting bombs. And then I felt ashamed for jumping to Video Game Conclusions).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Good points, though it occurs to me the "constantly holding back" thing could be implemented with a simple control scheme by making a character whose best signature moves are "back+A" and "back+B" and slight variations on that. The main problem Smash Brothers has with something like that isn't because of its simplified attack buttons, but rather that it's more than 1v1 and so there's not really a concept of "back" in the game. There's a standard back-attack when you're jumping I think, but usually holding back will just turn you around. I wonder how many other differences between Smash Brothers and the more classic fighting games are actually more about Smash being designed for four fighters, and not so much about the control scheme...hmm.

Hmm!

 

I also think there's a bit of a skewed perspective at work. For people who play fighting games, inputting a shoryuken is a natural action that can be done on instinct, immediately and mid-combo. It's not seen as a difficult action, and in fact, by being a slightly more complicated input, you're not as likely to break it out by accident. (Which is a real problem, with the way input buffering has to work in a lot of games, simple inputs can be misread, especially if there are a lot of moves with similar, simple inputs.)

The thing that is actually hard is combos, and that barrier of technical execution is what makes it exciting. If you were just locked into a full combo everytime somebody landed a hit, that would basically break the game. Instead, you're looking for a way out, waiting for a chance to capitalize on a dropped combo so you can punish the opponent's mistake.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

i would probably like fighting games more if they used macros, I'm not really a fan of muscle memory of super combos being the reason people win, i like it to be more about timing and tactics 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Persona arena is a pretty great game for low-med level players. It lets you preform a 4 hit combo into super metered move by just pressing the x button 4 times, but it's balanced really well so it doesn't ever feel cheap. Would highly recommend for fighter fans

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

i would probably like fighting games more if they used macros, I'm not really a fan of muscle memory of super combos being the reason people win, i like it to be more about timing and tactics 

 

I think macros would throw off character balance though if you were to just add it into an existing game. If you fire off a combo and wiff and that character happens to have a super long combo, then the macro is going to mean you're going to be extra punished for it because of the buffered input whereas a manually inputted combo, the player would still get punished, but they could stop inputting the extra moves in the combo.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

i would probably like fighting games more if they used macros, I'm not really a fan of muscle memory of super combos being the reason people win, i like it to be more about timing and tactics 

 

Long combos are never the sole reason people win though, you still have to get through somebody's defense while successfully fending off their attacks

Understanding the theory and mechanics behind a fight gets you a lot further in a fighting game than rote combo memorization, regardless of the game. (I am terrible at long combos.)

Combos are also much more situational and flexible than most people realize, i think. There is virtually never just one combo you need to know. It's more about one move flowing into a bunch of other movies which themselves flow into a bunch of other moves. When you look at a faq and see a huge combo printed off in some arcane input notation, it's after the community has gone through and tried to optimize their play, and even then there will always be many situational combos presented.

You can take bits and pieces of those combos and reshape and combine them into something you yourself can more reliably utilize, and they'll usually still work.

 

 

Persona arena is a pretty great game for low-med level players. It lets you preform a 4 hit combo into super metered move by just pressing the x button 4 times, but it's balanced really well so it doesn't ever feel cheap. Would highly recommend for fighter fans

 

Persona 4 Arena is freaking awesome. It makes some big concessions for newbies, but the game is no less deep than any of ArcSys's other games, and once you're ready to start looking at more optimal tactics, it's all there.

I still have mixed feelings about the automatic combo in that game, but it's pretty easy to predict and pick apart players who try to abuse it without any variation.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

well i'm not talking about just long combos as a macro i mean every move, also you can't deny that muscle memory of moves plays a massive role in most fighting games, if you could just pick up the game and instantly be able to pull off every move in the game, the game would be more about tactical choice of moves and combos and not about how much time you have spent mastering each move (muscle memory) 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think it's funny that Canadians are so heavily involved in the Go America anti-terrorism fiction mentioned in this cast.  Toronto and Montreal are both very left-wing cities, especially compared to American politics. Kiefer Sutherland (Jack Bauer) is also Canadian, and his grandfather was responsible for our universal health care system.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I gotta say I really dislike the idea that blink becomes even more powerful in the Dishonored DLC. I'm clearly in the minority opinion on this because anytime I see blink mentioned it's because people are talking about how much they loved blink, but I found it allowed me to get out of nearly any bad situation with total ease, and it drained the tension that makes a stealth game interesting.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

well i'm not talking about just long combos as a macro i mean every move, also you can't deny that muscle memory of moves plays a massive role in most fighting games, if you could just pick up the game and instantly be able to pull off every move in the game, the game would be more about tactical choice of moves and combos and not about how much time you have spent mastering each move (muscle memory) 

It's a lot more complicated than it seems. Changing the control would change how you play many styles of characters. (Grapplers and charge characters in particular.)

 

There's also just the matter of this, the second half of the quote:

 

 

I also think there's a bit of a skewed perspective at work. For people who play fighting games, inputting a shoryuken is a natural action that can be done on instinct, immediately and mid-combo. It's not seen as a difficult action, and in fact, by being a slightly more complicated input, you're not as likely to break it out by accident. (Which is a real problem, with the way input buffering has to work in a lot of games, simple inputs can be misread, especially if there are a lot of moves with similar, simple inputs.)

Relative to a game like Smash Bros, you are actually dealing with much larger movesets in more traditional fighting games. Standing and directional inputs are actually already covered by a lot of basic moves. (Down kick, down forward kick, forward kick, standing kick, jump kick, all repeated with how ever many buttons the game uses. And yes, the moves usually all really do serve important roles.) So the simplest inputs are all claimed, and you kind of have to end up with some moves tied into special inputs, and the simplest special inputs tend to overlap with normal actions in frustrating ways.

 

Back on Persona 4 Arena, that game has some real dedication for trying to map all of its specials to very basic special inputs, relying mostly on quarter circles and a few charge moves. The potential problem is that when every quarter circle action can combine with virtually any attack to result in a special, it ends up being really easy to throw out special moves accidentally, screwing up your match just as easily as failing the input on something more complex might. I mean, a quarter circle is as simple as moving from a defensive crouch to a forward walk. It honestly took me years to be able to reliably pull off a shoryuken when under pressure, i always screwed it up when it mattered, but i appreciate it now for being something that doesn't easily overlap with other actions.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now