Jake

Idle Thumbs 118: A Simple Litter

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Amazed at the lack of any real awareness of the saints row series, especially in light of it being one of Ryan Davis favourite game series tbh. Missing out of the series over some misbegotten ideas as to what it's about, and declarations of unlikely to touch based off of those misconceptions is kind of lame. The games are fun.

Well, there are basically infinite games to play; I already don't have enough time to play everything I want to. You have to have SOME method to filter stuff out. "This looks tonally unappealing" seems as good a way as any. I don't really enjoy parody-style humor and over the top wackiness (except in conversation I guess) generally, so when Danielle frames a lot of the game in that way, it just doesn't get me excited enough to want to go out and devote a bunch of time, especially since I know these games are big open world affairs that will take some time to really explore. It's totally fine that she's super into the game, and I think she explained well why it was appealing to her, those traits just didn't really sound like my thing.

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weird, i played saints row 3 and it felt super gross to me. the gameplay and story do mesh but the world it inhabits is fucked up to the point of being really off putting. I know it's trying to be this weird dumb thing and kind of light hearted even as insane, sadistic shit is going on but it ends up feeling like nothing in the world is of any consequence except for these chosen few people. 

 

For example all of the citizens of this city are just totally enamored with you and the saints, even as you're going around shooting everything and smashing through crowds of people (either on purpose or as part of a mission) and everybody thinks that it is just great and they are super excited that they could thoughtlessly die at the hands of the saints. The police don't even want to stop you and they think you're really cool too even though in the beginning you kill a ton of them as part of the story. it made me feel like a sociopath and it was unsettling. 

 

there is a really great use of music near the beginning though. There's a part where kanye west's 'power' comes on during a short cut scene as they are preparing to assault an opposing gang's hideout and then it transitions into the player controlled sequence as you approach the hideout and the music continues to play. It was really appropriate and that section was great to play. 

 

That's a totally legitimate reason to be put off by the series - it is ridiculously violent, to a degree that I'd call "cartoonish" if it wasn't so gory (much like Borderlands). Of course, the sociopathic feel is perfectly in keeping with the story and overall theme of SR3, which is all about the ridiculous power invested in celebrities - with people starstruck to see you on the street even as you pile-drive their friends, or police demanding that you "sign and put down your gun."

Also, their use of music is consistently good throughout; the "Power" use is spot-on for the theme, but one of the endings also makes amazing use of Bonnie Tyler's "Holding Out For a Hero."

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Super Smash Brothers looks really interesting but I have had no modern (meaning over 8-bit) Nintendo console so I have not been able to play it. So I was pleased to find out about Megabyte Punch. It is good and I believe its multiplayer and boss battles are very much Smash Bros-esque. Jake should play it and be thanked for reminding us about BaraBariBall.

http://megabytepunch.reptile-games.com/

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Jake should play it and be thanked for reminding us about BaraBariBall

This just prompted me to see what's cooking on my Sportsfriends page on the humble bundle site. So many great games I forgot about!

 

I need to set up a Sportsfriends party soon.

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I felt almost exactly the same about Rymdkapsel; I knew nothing about the gameplay before downloading it, so the process of learning what it was and how to become good at it was super-interesting. After my first defeat, I knew what kind of things to do in order to become more efficient and research all of the monoliths in time, and the process of doing that was still engrossing and fun. When I died after doing that, though (And after completing the achievement for reaching wave 28), I felt almost no motivation to go back and complete the final achievement. I think this is down to two things: While the challenge increases with every wave, the nature of the challenge never does. It's always the same enemies, and the process of defeating them is to simply move guys into weapon rooms. Secondly, the time between waves decreases to the point that you eventually have no time to regroup and improve your base, so it ends up that what you do in the early game (Choosing the layout of your rooms) becomes the most important thing in the late game. This is also a problem I have with certain Tower Defense games, where you have to strategise across an entire hour-long play session, and the game just ramps the difficulty up and up until you invariably die. I like this kind of thing in games where the average play time is much shorter (Super Hexagon, for example), but when each game takes so long, it can be hard to motivate myself to start from scratch again.

 

That said, I did really enjoy the time I spent on Rymdkapsel, and I do think people need to play it.

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I didn't enjoy Saints Row 3 really at all. It's not my kind of humor, for one. The Robot Chicken comparison Chris made is apt. Scary Movie also comes to mind; there's a lot of reliance on pointing at something ridiculous and laughing without putting in any effort to craft a nuanced joke.

 

Also the gameplay felt pretty dull. 99% of the game was awkward 3rd person shoot-outs. I was constantly running out of ammo which seemed odd for a game that touted itself as being all about hyperbole.

 

That being said, I'm cracking up at this trailer for 4. The sillyness of its humor can be endearing at times. I'm just not sure if the actual game underneath it will ever be my cup of tea:

 

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Well, there are basically infinite games to play; I already don't have enough time to play everything I want to. You have to have SOME method to filter stuff out. "This looks tonally unappealing" seems as good a way as any. I don't really enjoy parody-style humor and over the top wackiness (except in conversation I guess) generally, so when Danielle frames a lot of the game in that way, it just doesn't get me excited enough to want to go out and devote a bunch of time, especially since I know these games are big open world affairs that will take some time to really explore. It's totally fine that she's super into the game, and I think she explained well why it was appealing to her, those traits just didn't really sound like my thing.

Yeah I haven't played any Saints Row games myself. I knew what they were and all, but I'd rather play GTA itself (though, it's not out of a dislike for what Saints Row does as a series, its just my preference of GTA's tones over it).

 

I had no idea that SR4 was going out of control, her description was incredible. For a second there I thought we were getting into some Frog Fractions type territory.

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SR is over-the-top stupid and violent, and does totally embrace that aesthetic, but most games (intentionally or otherwise) are also over-the-top stupid and violent. It's like if every snack tasted like cheese, but there is this one snack that REALLY EXTREMELY tastes like cheese, I wouldn't be all that excited about the extreme cheese snack.  

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Danielle was a great guest, and I hope she does end up making some future appearances. My favorite episodes of Idle Thumbs have guests on the show, and I think that is because the cast of Idle Thumbs is so in sync with each other that guests provide some really useful contrast that generate more varied discussions.

 

I'm kind of surprised by how many people are enjoying Rymdkapsel. I really like iOS gaming just because you can just buy a game like once a week for a few bucks, and if you don't end up enjoying it it is no big deal, it is such a low investment of time and money. However Rymdkapsel was a really sour experience for me, and I felt annoyed that I spent $4 on it. I was trying to think why that is, because I've paid for other games on iOS that I didn't end up enjoying, but also didn't annoy me the way this game did. I think my problem with the game is just that it feels more like a rough draft of a game rather than a fully realized vision.

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Danielle is pleasingly thumbsian, I would support her continued involvement.

Jake, your pauses are killing me. My ailing iPod often stops of its own accord so I find myself reaching for it only to have you speak or listen to what I believe to be your silent contemplation to then realise I was listening to nothing at all.

I find any mechanical game without permanence very hard to play. I've always found arcade games tedious, deriving very little pleasure from getting better at a system which serves no greater purpose. This extends to my taste in board games and is why I find abstract games uninteresting. Mechanics which serve an overarching theme are wonderfully engaging, when an understanding of the systems allows you to shape how a scenario unfolds. It's why I'd rather play A Few Acres of Snow than Dominion and I'd rather play Total War than StarCraft. Rymdkapsel sounds like it sits on the wrong side of the fence for me.

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Saint's Row 3 had some great set pieces and zany mechanics, but I felt it also had a lot of dry sections and was slow to ramp up. I'm actually looking forward to Saint's Row 4 because it looks like they've trimmed even more fat.

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My opinion of Rymdkapsel is dropping like a rock the further I get away from it. The mechanics are just such a mess, and the game so half-baked beyond the excellent graphical style.

In my experience, the way to win is to keep your minion-count low—I maxed out at 8, personally—only send a a little span out to each of the monoliths, and try to keep the key rooms in the central core. All you really need is one defense room near each of the monoliths to send your two researchers to during waves. After researching all four, just build four defense rooms near the center as close as possible to each other, with food and quarters nearby so you can respawn quickly. And like you said, at a certain point you just have to be holed up and wait to die.

Here's what my base ended up as: http://cl.ly/image/2K2n1m1E0J2I

The really frustrating part is that so many of the choices I made were necessitated by the game's clumsy minion/resource-handling, than by any property of the space or the enemies. Ugh.

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I have the same issue with Roguelikes. I totally understand the appeal, but modern gaming has wrecked the impermanence for me. Even with something short, like Binding of Issac, I get too bummed me out after a good run ends do to some dumb mistake and I'm left with "nothing to show for it."

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Roguelikes aren't for everyone, so I won't argue too strongly on their behalf, but when you die in a good roguelike it is not the case that you will have nothing to show for it. Most of the time you will have learned about some new features, systems, or aspects of the game that will improve your chances of reaching the game's victory condition.

 

I really like in NetHack how it will end a game with a pithy summary of how your character died, and you can review your score list with all these summaries. It provides a nice opportunity to reflect back on all the different experiences you had playing the game.

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I NEED to see that lobby photo, so that I can prepare appropriately.

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Well, there are basically infinite games to play; I already don't have enough time to play everything I want to. You have to have SOME method to filter stuff out. "This looks tonally unappealing" seems as good a way as any. I don't really enjoy parody-style humor and over the top wackiness (except in conversation I guess) generally, so when Danielle frames a lot of the game in that way, it just doesn't get me excited enough to want to go out and devote a bunch of time, especially since I know these games are big open world affairs that will take some time to really explore. It's totally fine that she's super into the game, and I think she explained well why it was appealing to her, those traits just didn't really sound like my thing.

 

 

We all have infinite games to play Jeremy. As regards not liking parody style humour and over the top wackiness, correct me if I'm wrong but you do work at Double fine? I'd of thought love of the wacky was a prerequisite surely? Obsessing about a comedy dildo (an optional item that isn't even integral to any mission in the game at all) and finding that somehow reason enough to dismiss it just seems rather out of hand. SR3 is a cleverly put together title. It's certainly not perfect mechanistically but it plays to its increasing absurdity with a straight face without breaking character in exactly the same way that The Venture Brothers or Archer do which is what makes it such a joy to play. It just came across in the podcast that you were angling from the off for reasons to dismiss it with little real conception from either of you as to what it was, and why it was referencing certain things and Danielle wasn't really able to explain why your conclusions were misplaced because she's clearly limited in what she could say without *massive spoilers* on a title that's not yet out. 

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 Obsessing about a comedy dildo (an optional item that isn't even integral to any mission in the game at all) and finding that somehow reason enough to dismiss it just seems rather out of hand. 

 

To be fair, the marketing for that game was pretty much non-stop dildos. I agree that there's some better humor in the game, but if you haven't played it, then you only have so much to go on. 

 

I think it's weird that people are reacting so strongly to Chris not being interested in a game or series of games (I actually typed Christ for a second). It's not like he's even saying they're bad. 

 

Like, I'm sure there are plenty of good sports games out there, but I wouldn't know, nor do I think it would greatly enrich my life to form an opinion about them.

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I think you need to cut them some slack, as the show is really just some friends speaking extemporaneously and making jokes. Also, people should be allowed to just not like stuff. 

 

I suspect that they wouldn't really come around on it, as they've been generally cool on games parodying games. 

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We all have infinite games to play Jeremy. As regards not liking parody style humour and over the top wackiness, correct me if I'm wrong but you do work at Double fine? I'd of thought love of the wacky was a prerequisite surely? Obsessing about a comedy dildo (an optional item that isn't even integral to any mission in the game at all) and finding that somehow reason enough to dismiss it just seems rather out of hand. SR3 is a cleverly put together title. It's certainly not perfect mechanistically but it plays to its increasing absurdity with a straight face without breaking character in exactly the same way that The Venture Brothers or Archer do which is what makes it such a joy to play. It just came across in the podcast that you were angling from the off for reasons to dismiss it with little real conception from either of you as to what it was, and why it was referencing certain things and Danielle wasn't really able to explain why your conclusions were misplaced because she's clearly limited in what she could say without *massive spoilers* on a title that's not yet out. 

 

My impression of Double Fine is that it is a fairly heterogeneous studio in terms of tastes in games.

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Yeah, I don't think anyone on the show would actually like Saint's Row 3. 

 

Although I have to say I just booted up the game to export my character for SR4 and I ended up killing 30 minutes just playing with the weapons and blowing stuff up. It's just crazy dumb fun done right.

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Sometimes I wonder if the dildo-obsessed marketing campaign of the later Saints Row games has actually attracted more fans than it's alienated.

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What Danielle was saying is really true through, their character creator is cool and nicely inclusive, seemingly by design. I think the devs were actually saying that recently, pushing back on some marketing. You can make a male or female voiced avatar and give them any proportions or shape you'd like. Large people can be fairly large. 

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People are absolutely allowed to like/dislike whatever they want even without having played/tried them.

 

But those wrasslin moves. I spent literally an hour doing nothing but harassing pedestrians by clotheslining/suplexing/dropkicking them in SR3 when I discovered they existed (which, to be fair, the game doesn't, if I remember correctly, really tell you about them...I think I was HOURS in before I realized they existed).

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