MO MONEY MO THUMBS - PAYDAY 2

[Gormongous]

I actually uninstalled it a while ago.  It's good that they're going to continue supporting it and 2 years is certainly a long time.  I'm just not sure that I want to get back into playing it.  Unless they made some pretty big changes/fixes to the mechanics, additional content like maps and characters isn't going to appeal to me enough to come back.

 

Would you mind elaborating? I always enjoy hearing people who are extremely conversant with a game's mechanics talk about where they fall down, even if I still like playing that game myself. Actually, I have more than a few problems with Payday 2 myself, mostly centering around stats that don't add up and its tedious timesink of a metagame, but after the first couple months of play, I've been treating it almost exclusively as a "build cool guns and use them to help your friends" simulator, which is enough for me, although probably not the perfect basis for long-term play.

[SecretAsianMan]

I think the way the game currently is lacks sufficient encouragement for variety.  Most of the weapons have a numerically optimal configuration and a lot are entirely useless.  I feel like the builds don't reward me enough to play around either.  Once I have my loud/stealth build, I never feel like there's a substantial benefit to switching to something else.  I much prefer games where each role is unique and there's a benefit to having each of them.  Ideally Payday could be like that too, but for combat most of the time you benefit from having lots of inspire or armor and in stealth you have nothing but... well stealth.  Compare that to when we played Monaco.  If we could have all been the Gentleman I feel like it would have been much less interesting.

 

I feel that a significant number of the skills are useless and only exist as point sinks to climb up the tree.  I really dislike the tiered skill trees, I'd much rather just be able to pick the skills I want for more points rather than have to waste them in areas that I know I won't use. 

 

I think its exceedingly dumb that you can board up windows but not close doors. 

 

I find Bain to be really annoying.

 

I dislike how much standing around and waiting there is.

 

I also agree with the stats and timesink complaints.

[Gormongous]

Thanks for that, SAM. When I first started playing the game, I thought the tree you bought into was the only tree you could spend skill points on, and the more I play, the more I'm a little disappointed that it isn't like that, because everyone has these hyper-optimized hybrid builds that don't have any real identity. I guess I agree with you completely there, then.

 

I agree with the skill trees, mostly because the design has so much +5% this and -10% that, which just gums up the weird way the game calculates numbers even more.

 

Bain is incredibly annoying, and a big part of how awful it is to wait is listening to him. The other problem is just that drills take maybe sixty seconds too long across the board. It feels like there was an initial design decision to make the drills take a long time so that there'd be a bigger chance of discovery, but more than half of the use cases for drills are when there's no possible failure, so it's totally just wasteful. Oh well.

 

I still like Payday 2 and play it, but only with friends who enjoy taking on discrete "roles" and only using guns that I find fun to shoot as well as fun to look at their numbers.

[SecretAsianMan]

Part of my complaints can easily be blamed on myself.  I'm the kind of person who will look for and use the objectively best gun because that's how I'm wired (blame the engineer in me).  Even though I find min/maxing tedious, I'll do it.  But I also hate having things and not using them so it bothers me that so many if the weapons and mods are worthless.

 

I think locking skills into one tree would piss people off but would make for a better game in the long run.  I'd be interested in trying it with a group of people who played like that, but I suspect the game design wouldn't support it very well.

 

I feel like the intent of the drills is to make certain moments more intense and cinematic.  When you're in the middle of a firefight and the drill breaks, it really does feel like a scene out of a heist movie as you try to fix the drill and fight off the cops.  But when you're in a no fail scenario or are in between waves, they only serve to pad out the game.  I've lost count of the number of times I've run around a bank jumping about doing nothing while waiting for a drill.

 

I also think that stealth needs some fixing.  The vast majority of stealth scenarios are best completed with only one person.  Having additional people only makes it harder, not easier.  Unless of course you have a really elite team of Sam Fishers.  There are a bunch of missions that I refused to do in stealth with random people because it only takes one person to screw the entire team.  I'm fine with that as a mechanic, but only if its balanced out by a substantial benefit to actual teamwork.

[Gormongous]

Yeah, I also am a habitual min/maxer, but I've been rescued by the fact that most games don't give me this much control over the firearms I use, so I'm able to use some of my latent gun-nut tendencies to push myself to use the Commando and the Gecko, guns that I think are gorgeous, instead of using the CAR and the AK, both of which I think are ugly as sin. It's definitely not for everyone, but the drive to buy and customize guns that I've always liked to see in action has functionally turned Payday 2 from a one-month pastime to an indefinite one.

 

One of my builds was a pure Mastermind and one of my friend's builds was a pure Ghost until my other friend convinced him to respec it with skills from the Technician and Fugitive. They worked, albeit not perfectly. The game's definitely balanced for everyone or almost everyone on the team having that handful of must-have skills spread out between the five trees. I don't think that Overkill sees it as a design problem, but then they're the same people who force players to customize their guns, the most important element of the game, based on a really fickle RNG until recently, so I'm not surprised by that.

 

And agreed about stealth being worse when played with other people. The easiest fix of which I can think is for max number of pagers answered to scale with the number of people in the game, even though I know that opens some levels up to abuse. It's just ridiculous that you're twice as likely to be discovered in Shadow Raid or Hoxton's Revenge with two people playing, but you're given nothing in return, besides an extra pair of hands to carry shit. I guess that plays into Overkill's lack of concern about wasting your time. I'm stunned at how many "hard" levels become trivial if you're willing to spend thirty or forty-five minutes beating them in the most cautious and risk-adverse way possible.

[SecretAsianMan]

I'm the kind of person who doesn't really care about aesthetics like how the guns look (to a point at least, I'll care if they look like complete shit).  I'm a much more mechanics driven person so I'll pick weapons for strategic reasons over looks every time.  Although I will admit to using the P90 (which I think the game calls a Kobus 90) longer than I probably should have because in terms of the real life counterparts its my actual favorite gun.

 

Overkill's method of updating their game is weird to me.  When they introduce new mechanics or make fixes in content updates, they have a tendency to horribly break older jobs.  Sometimes its for the better but a lot of times for the worse.  I guess they're assuming people will stop playing the older stuff as they release more content, which is a reasonable assumption, but there are still things I'd like to see fixed (or unfixed as the case may be).  It's also probably a product of their unusual format for mission selection.

 

Your last statement about hard levels becoming trivial is also a big reason why I stopped playing.  In general I get stop playing when games get "solved" and the only way to make things difficult is to make the game ridiculously unfair.

[Smart Jason]

I've seen a few thumbs (myself included) pick up a mess of DLC during the sale. I spent a long time away from this game over the past six months or so but still kept it near and dear to my heart, so I'm always up for an Alesso heist or whatever!

[undermind9]

finally bit after a free/sale weekend.  i tried one with AI's and got gunned down - maybe i can watch the door on a real team.  Add on steam - would love to play/learn the ropes - "undermind9"

[Gormongous]

finally bit after a free/sale weekend.  i tried one with AI's and got gunned down - maybe i can watch the door on a real team.  Add on steam - would love to play/learn the ropes - "undermind9"

 

It's an inexplicable design choice how tough they make it to get into Payday 2 without a crew. You're not a real contender until you have a decent gun (with a solid idea of what their numbers actually mean) and a few levels (which give you the skills to really take on a role and some armor that lets you survive more than a couple of shots), and neither of those come without beating at least a few medium- to high-level missions. There's a bit of meta, but not much, and it's more important to be able just to work in a team and take orders.

 

Anyway, I've got a crew of non-internet friends that run semi-regularly, as well as my tendency just to do stealth heists for cash to feed my love of customizing sub-optimal guns, so I'll go ahead and add you!

[undermind9]

Thank you!

 

i got the 4-pack because it was $3.50 ea for the base game and wanted to share with my normal Dota group as a less infuriating alternative some nights.  

 

After the 0-skull failure I had a strong doubt they'd jump into a new game w/o at least a liaison with a semblance of a clue.  

[Korax]

I'd be down for helping a new player, too. It's been a while since I played regularly, despite buying all the new stuff that's released.

[Rilen]

Just started playing with 2 of my friends. We are all really loving the game. Looking for a fourth to learn with or show us the ropes. I'm interested in trying more planning and attempts at stealth. 

undermind9, added you on Steam. We are on the East Coast as well if we want to try some scheduling. 

Korax, added you. 

[Korax]

It's been a little while since I last played, but I had some of the smaller heists down cold for Deathwish stealth (branch bank, diamond store, the Ukrainian job). Not only is it fun to pull off a secret heist, doing it on the high difficulty also results in a bit of power-leveling, and is helpful for getting the skills and equipment needed to wreck other larger, louder heists.

[Smart Jason]

Well, just like last year, they brought back Crimefest - this time with a series of in-game challenges in order to unlock various community items (which are all promised to release in two weeks, so no waiting a year for FBI files and the new GenSec enemy last time). To the community's credit, at the time of this writing, all the challenges have been completed with the exception of two: whatever the single, final challenge to be announced tomorrow may be, and the "Crime.net Overload!" challenge - requiring 30,000 players to be online simultaneously.

 

Those of you familiar with similar goals from early days of achievement design or something probably see where this is going: an organized effort to get everyone online at the same time. One was already tried on Wednesday, which failed. The next, and likely last, is happening tomorrow. At 11am PDT, people following the subreddit and some community figures begin the attempt. An hour later, the official Payday 2 Steam Group is apparently due to make an announcement about it, so despite that Reddit post, if you're interested in joining in, I'd stay on for longer to join whatever number comes in through that. All you have to do, of course, is have the game open.

[Wooben]

CRIMEFEST?!?! 

im a payday fiend but none of my regular crew are playing anymore 

hit me up im down 2 clown http://steamcommunity.com/profiles/76561198053912619/

[Gormongous]

The first day of Crimefest was just announced!

 

It's... a CS:GO-style crate-drop system with weapon skins (whatever) that you unlock with real money through drills (okay...) that have stat boosts and unlock new/different mods (uh...). There's also apparently a massive weapon rebalance in the works that is totally uncertain in its outcome.

 

I'm honestly flabbergasted that the first "free" content released in Crimefest is the ability to access a F2P system. Overkill's PR is wringing its hands that CS:GO, TF2, and Dota 2 get a free pass for exactly the same business model, but somehow keep missing the comments pointing out that those games are free (or, in the case of CS:GO, a fifteen-dollar purchase that is on sale every month) and Payday 2 is a twenty-dollar game with a hundred and ten dollars of DLC.

 

It's just a fiasco. I'm tempted to boot it up when I get home just to see the bloodbath.

 

 

EDIT: Even more choice: http://www.gamespot.com/articles/payday-2-wont-have-microtransactions/1100-6410303/

[Gormongous]

Okay, someone's captured all of the base stats for the weapon rebalance: https://www.reddit.com/r/paydaymeta/comments/3ow3n1/crimefest_day_1_meta_discussion/cw0zo53

 

It's... really out there. Shotguns have been nerfed into the ground. The previous king, the Steakout 12G, now can't even hit the 39.85 breakpoint. Assault rifle damage is largely unchanged but have moderate accuracy and stability nerfs across the board. Only heavy ARs like the Gewehr 3 and Eagle are able to hit perfect stats. Pistols and submachine guns got a huge buff. Most pistols can hit the highest breakpoint of 79.85 while keeping perfect or near-perfect accuracy and stability. Many SMGs can, too. The Krinkov, one of the worst SMGs in the game, now outperforms the CAR-4, hitherto the perfect assault rifle. Mods have been nerfed across the board. The vast majority only add between one and five points to a given stat, which is a substantial downgrade now that accuracy and stability are hundred-point scales.

 

It's going to take the community weeks to find out what the "best" guns are again. It would be an incredibly exciting time, except that many of the smartest and most experienced people in the community are quitting over the F2P weapon skins, so who knows what the new normal will be?

[SecretAsianMan]

The sound of all that makes me glad I got out of the game when I did.  While there is a certain amount of fun to be had in figuring out optimal configurations, it's also a lot of tedious min/maxing that gets old rather quickly.  I don't necessarily mind balance changes but when the only way to fix your game is to completely break it every time you release an update or new content, I feel like maybe it wasn't all that great to begin with and you're not really sure what you're doing.  Adding a F2P layer on top of the grindfest doesn't sound appealing at all, especially when your game isn't even free to begin with.

[Wooben]

Oh dang everyone is boycotting it now
Microtransactions suck, but I do like shooting guys in the face

The great ethical dilemma of our time 

[Gormongous]

The sound of all that makes me glad I got out of the game when I did.  While there is a certain amount of fun to be had in figuring out optimal configurations, it's also a lot of tedious min/maxing that gets old rather quickly.  I don't necessarily mind balance changes but when the only way to fix your game is to completely break it every time you release an update or new content, I feel like maybe it wasn't all that great to begin with and you're not really sure what you're doing.  Adding a F2P layer on top of the grindfest doesn't sound appealing at all, especially when your game isn't even free to begin with.

 

Well, the main issue currently is that there is very little optimization possible anymore. At best, mods now shift accuracy and stability the equivalent of a single point under the old system so, save with regards to damage and concealment, a gun is not radically different from its base stats. That's a problem because:

1. Assault rifles now have terrible accuracy and stability, with most of the mods balanced to increase one to the detriment of the other, so even though ammo and damage has been increased across the board to hit important breakpoints, most guns have an accuracy equivalent to 10 or 12 that can maybe be modded to 14 or 16, meaning that you can't trust your gun to hit what it's being aimed at farther out than ten meters and, because stability was also nerfed, you definitely can't trust the follow-up shot to be anywhere near that first one.
2. Shotguns, especially primaries, have had their damage and ammo aggressively nerfed, because it wasn't clear before that Overkill doesn't understand how shotguns work and definitely doesn't want anyone who bought the DLC to think that they made a good purchase. The Locomotive and Judge came out okay, but every other strategy, especially primary-focused ones with HE, is broken for good.
3. With some exceptions, mostly always-terrible guns like the Mac-10, submachine guns have stat parity with assault rifles now. In some cases, like the Para and the CAR-4, the SMG outperforms its AR counterpart in every respect except mod slots. It's a completely ineffable decision that's totally in line with Overkill's overall efforts to make secondaries the new primaries.
4. And that brings me to pistols, all of which have had their damage pushed past the 39.85 damage threshold. Unlike assault rifles, their accuracy and stability haven't been nerfed to compensate, so almost every pistol is now a one-shot killing machine with laser precision. Ironically, this makes most of the pistol-focused mastermind skills useless, because the damage, accuracy, and stability boosts are no longer necessary to make pistols effective.

I'm just fatigued because it's wrecked the meta and put nothing in its place. In most categories, you're left with an abundance of mediocre choices, but in a few, every choice is optimal. Both are bad for a progression-based multiplayer game. There's no nuance and definitely no understanding of potential weapon roles. Overkill doesn't seem to play their own game, which makes me not want to play, either.

[SecretAsianMan]

I'm just fatigued because it's wrecked the meta and put nothing in its place. In most categories, you're left with an abundance of mediocre choices, but in a few, every choice is optimal. Both are bad for a progression-based multiplayer game. There's no nuance and definitely no understanding of potential weapon roles. Overkill doesn't seem to play their own game, which makes me not want to play, either.

 

In theory I actually like the idea of having several optimal choices because it promotes variety.  One of the things I loved about TF2 (before all the hat stuff) was that the new weapons and modes introduced didn't invalidate existing weapons and tactics (with some exceptions that badly needed fixing).  Instead they simply offered a new, completely viable way to play alongside the old way. 

 

But in this case I have to agree with you.  It feels like every iteration is going back to the drawing board with someone different at the helm each time and the outcome depends on what that person likes at the moment.  What bothered me the most about a lot of the changes they kept making was it felt like they were only looking forward and not back.  Updates were geared toward a specific heist or weapon/skill set that was designed to make the new content work while completely breaking the old content.  Older missions become either impossible or laughably easy, neither of which is actually fun.  It keeps pushing you toward getting the newest piece of DLC just to be able to actually play the game in a meaningful way.

[Gormongous]

So Crimefest is over and Overkill has spoken: even though their decision to institute gameplay-affecting microtransactions for a twenty-dollar game with over a hundred dollars of DLC, against repeated assurances that they would never do such a thing, has received an overwhelmingly negative response from fans and the press, they're keeping them in. In his post-Crimefest AMA, lead producer Almir Listo stuck mostly to canned PR responses, saying that the microtransactions for stat-boosting gun skins were already a success "statistically" and "from an economic standpoint" despite "complainers," but also confirmed that Overkill's decision to triple its staff from 25 to 75 employees in two years, without releasing another game, has forced its own hand. Reddit is claiming that Starbreeze, Overkill's publisher/owner/alias, posted record profits in the millions this year and has no basis to be presenting itself as a cash-strapped "indie" developer, but either way, it seems like there's plenty of bad judgment somewhere along the line.

 

Anyway, I'm officially done playing this game. The mod scene has collapsed, with the creators of GoonMod and DMCWO formally washing their hands. The creators of the Long Guide and the Optimal Weapons Guide have also quit, as have the proprietors of /r/paydaymeta. The current balance of the game has made most of my choices, especially with regards to weapons, either meaningless or obvious. I've spend dozens of real dollars and millions of ingame dollars setting up a character with equipment that has been mostly invalidated by the new state of affairs. The game's still there and it's still fun, but I have no energy or interest in dealing with it anymore. There are so many games out there, and Overkill's naked greed and disrespect just isn't for me anymore.

[Smart Jason]

I'm playing the game more now than I have in all of 2015.

 

When this first began, I wrote Overkill a big long email, which is not something I'd normally do. I'll quote it below. Obviously, it accomplished nothing. But I think it's a lie people are telling themselves to say the game is no longer fun. The three heists added during Crimefest (which, overall, I agree was a mishandled disappointment - regardless of drills) are now among the best in the game, and I'm still finding lots of pub lobbies to run them over and over enjoyably.

 

The AMA, I have a hard time vilifying Almir for, because of how gross the community was simultaneously. All of his responses were downvoted to the point that you couldn't even view them in the thread, the exact same questions were asked ad nauseam, some real issues went unaddressed while lesser issues (the weapon rebalance) were hugely inflated.

 

The weapon rebalance thing really gets me. The fact that I saw it show up so ubiquitously as a complaint in the AMA as though it's somehow an incorruptible concrete slab upon the game, never again to be patched, worthy of the same indignation as microtransactions made the whole community seem as head-in-ass embedded as the people posting ASCII dicks and middle fingers comments on every Payday 2 community update in Steam.

 

I changed my subweapon because of the rebalance. I really love my current loadout. If they nerf my subweapon, I'll change it again. I am not a baby.

 

If we've lost the Long Guide, that's a shame. HoxHud is coming back in a few days. Most of the content-makers who quit probably were just tired and wanted an excuse, if we're being honest.

 

You're right, Gormongous, that there are a lot of games out there, but Payday 2 is one that I find very fulfilling, and "naked greed" is not a trait exclusive to Overkill or Starbreeze. I'll make this very personal and ask where the outrage was across the whole Internet when Konami released an unfinished game a month ago called Metal Gear Solid V? It has DLC, microtransactions, and poor PR communication. It's PvP rather than PvE, and those functions are deeply ingrained in the game, and they're also pay to win, just more insidiously hidden (pay to buy more resource-gatherers, use the resources to become stronger, attack other players - using pure attrition if necessary). The game was advertised as something it wasn't ("The downfall of Big Boss") rather than a victim of changes in company policy ("no microtransactions"), and once again: released without an ending or even a second half, a fact which professional reviewers ignored and the community at large has plainly forgiven on account of it being fun on a mechanical level.

 

I still like playing Payday 2. Here's what I wrote to Overkill:

 

Hi Overkill.

 

I'm a loyal Payday 2 customer. I have 685 hours logged in the game. I own every piece of DLC except for the two most recent (Gage Chivalry and Yakuza, more on that later). Please feel free to verify on my Steam account: http://steamcommunity.com/id/jasonsavior/

 

I believe that downloadable content is a morally precarious issue in this industry. Until today, Overkill has maintained my trust by always being transparent with consumers and delivering precisely what was advertised. The Black Market Update was a gigantic misstep. Announced at a time when most, including me, were anticipating the largest outpouring of free content of the year, this update changes the business model of the game into one that, while it may be substantially more lucrative for Overkill in the short term, preys upon consumers in a much less ethical way than standard DLC packs. The Valve-style crate-and-key system is known to produce the same endorphin rush as gambling and hinges entirely upon enticing players to pay again and again on the chance that they might receive the item they're looking for. This is antithetical to how Payday 2 has conducted its business in the past, what was quoted in 2013, and what I personally want from the game.

 

I was eagerly looking forward to purchasing the content packs I didn't own with this current sale. Now, I'm unable to bring myself to do so, as my purchase may be taken as a sign of support or compliance with this new business model. I cannot say that I'll never again play Payday 2, but I intend to never again put money toward it or any other Starbreeze property - and I certainly have zero interest in purchasing a single drill item or whatever it is.

 

I wish I didn't have to write this message. If this were a game I cared less about, I wouldn't have. But I consider Payday 2 an exciting, passionately made, extremely creative project that is one of the most compelling titles I've ever played. I'm extremely disappointed with the path it's taken now.

 

Thank you for your time.

 

(I'm at 715 hours now.)

[Gormongous]

You're right, Gormongous, that there are a lot of games out there, but Payday 2 is one that I find very fulfilling, and "naked greed" is not a trait exclusive to Overkill or Starbreeze. I'll make this very personal and ask where the outrage was across the whole Internet when Konami released an unfinished game a month ago called Metal Gear Solid V? It has DLC, microtransactions, and poor PR communication.

 

Simply put, because I cannot speak for anyone but myself, I have not bought Metal Gear Solid V, but I have bought Payday 2 and put almost a hundred dollars into its DLC. That's what makes Overkill's "I'm all right, Jack" attitude sting for me, while I don't give a shit about Kojima or Konami.

 

No company can be entirely responsible for the toxic community surrounding its games, but it simply cannot be argued that Overkill isn't getting the community they deserve with their rotating arsenal of flattery, spin, and silence. Remember the Hype Train event this past spring, where Overkill flatly asked its community to help them sell two million dollars of DLC, which turned out to be in exchange for rewards that no one wanted, like PaydayCon and a professional gaming tournament themed around Payday 2? Remember the Completely Overkill Pack released during that event, a twenty-dollar piece of DLC that was nakedly presented as a way of donating money to Overkill? How exactly is structuring your fan events around them making you money and openly asking for no-strings handouts from them going to breed anything but the most entitled fans? Even that would be okay if they were interested in interacting with the community that resulted from the aggregation of those fans, but they aren't. They just wanted their fans' money, while still being unwilling to deal with the heightened stakes from letting those fans get invested in the game's development. Almir even complained that the reduction of prices for old DLC back in May, which they presented as a thank-you to a devoted community, was really meant to spur sales but didn't. It's all just money, and that's why I can't let myself cut them any slack for the outcome of Crimefest 2015, much as I deplore the idiotic brigading by Reddit and the Steam forums. 

 

Furthermore, I have zero faith that Overkill is going to work on its most recent mistakes. That's why I can't fault the community in particular for raking them over the coals for the weapon rebalance, which shows total insulation from and ignorance of the community and its extensive meta, because it's liable to be the status quo for months if not years. The game's balance has been a joke since the first DLC packs started dropping, yet this is the first and only weapon rebalance in the game's entire lifespan. Without something like the stat-based skins system as a driving factor, whatever reason would they have to waste man-hours revisiting it? Remember when they released the first part of the Infamy update back in January 2014? They stated that they were dissatisfied with the implementation and that they would return to it. When they did, in this year's Hype Train event, they made no changes whatsoever to the existing implementation and simply added twenty more levels of experience discounts, calling it "Infamy 2.0." They also stated that they were dissatisfied with that implementation (or, really, the lack thereof) and that they will return to it. No sign of it yet and no word from Almir when asked during his AMA. The thing is, Overkill doesn't really have a history of fixing its design missteps, unless those missteps have an obvious visual component like animations or models that can be advertised. They just don't seem to be interesting in maintaining the kind of game that they created, even though they'll gladly ask five dollars from the community every month (and now two-fifty every other week, to open a safe) to keep doing their own thing and telling the people who paid money for Payday 2 that they're No True Fan unless they agree with everything Overkill does. It's just... I don't know.

 

And hey, even if they do fix the weapon rebalance, what's the point of it if there's no Long Guide or Optimal Weapons Guide? You may say that these people quit out of exhaustion, but I have only their words by which to go, and both Frankelstner and KarateF22 have been very explicit that Overkill's conduct as a developer and as a company have been what exhausted them. With their absence, I feel exhausted, too, because the meta is the only thing that elevates Payday 2 above Left 4 Dead 2, a game with a superior shooting model, more interesting level design, and better feedback systems. If I leave, I just won't come back, and Overkill gave me literally no reason to stay besides sunk-cost fallacy, so yeah... I'm done for the foreseeable future, sadly. I'm glad you're having fun, though!

[SecretAsianMan]

I'm just really glad I got tired of trying to figure that game's increasingly convoluted (and increasingly less fun in my opinion) systems.  I've been out of the game for a long time, both figuratively and literally.  I've long felt that the game was F2P disguised as something else so I can't say that I'm surprised it's turned out the way it has, though I'm maybe a little disappointed.  I'm glad you can still find the game fun Jason, but when I think back on my time with it I don't get the same warm fuzzy feelings I do with other games I've liked and have since stopped playing.  Really I think the only actual fun I had was playing with groups of Thumbs (including one rare occasion with Sean).