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QUILTBAG Thread of Flagrant Homoeroticism

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Man, that writing is... p r e t t y b a d

 

could they not have, like... asked someone? literally anyone?

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I'm just distracted by the boob-socking going on on that page.

 

Artists (looking pointedly at the men here): you can't draw cleavage on material that goes across the breast

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It's terrible and it's technically not feasible unless you actually stitch out a cup of material. These artists have a ton of resources and access to anatomy studies and clothing studies and they choose to ignore them once boobs become involved. 

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Can you imagine if you had a mutant for a child and you scrimped and saved to send them to Xavier's School for Gifted Youngsters and they mail you back a uniform with boob pockets?

 

"Yeah, you know what, on second thought, you're going to a trade school. You'll be a pipe-fitter who can talk to animals."

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Hasn't one of the many interpretation of the X-Men (and mutants in general) is that it's a metaphor for being gay?  They had to hide that they were "different", get ostracized and even attacked for it, the change usually happens with puberty, they're often confused about what/who they are, etc.  It seems weird that they'd not get this.

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Hasn't one of the many interpretation of the X-Men (and mutants in general) is that it's a metaphor for being gay?  They had to hide that they were "different", get ostracized and even attacked for it, the change usually happens with puberty, they're often confused about what/who they are, etc.  It seems weird that they'd not get this.

 

It definitely tracks to social Otherness but I've never seen/heard anything that is actually meant to tie it to any particular outcast group.

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I've been told that the movie peoples have commented rather specifically that regardless of the comic's original intent, the allegory is intentional in the movies.

 

HEARSAY THO SO YOU KNOW

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This is a really good piece on the whole Iceman is gay thing. Before you click the link, know that the article's on Playboy and I understand that that is particularly weird for this conversation. But also know that the author, Rachel Edidin, is quite smart and thoughtful and has a great deal of first-hand experience in both queer issues and the X-men and probably about as much overlap of the two as any living human. So it's worthwhile to read if you're interested in the topic.

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This is a really good piece on the whole Iceman is gay thing. Before you click the link, know that the article's on Playboy and I understand that that is particularly weird for this conversation. But also know that the author, Rachel Edidin, is quite smart and thoughtful and has a great deal of first-hand experience in both queer issues and the X-men and probably about as much overlap of the two as any living human. So it's worthwhile to read if you're interested in the topic.

 

All-New X-Men has been running for a little under four years and it’s tied to characters and continuity that — in some form or another — go back to 1963.

 

Hey, so how about a comic book titled All-New X-Men that's tied to fifty-year-old continuity

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Yeah, X-Men titles are kind of ridiculous. There's like 5 ongoing X-books right now. So many that one is just called X-Men and has to be referred to as "adjectiveless X-Men."

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This is a really good piece on the whole Iceman is gay thing. Before you click the link, know that the article's on Playboy and I understand that that is particularly weird for this conversation. But also know that the author, Rachel Edidin, is quite smart and thoughtful and has a great deal of first-hand experience in both queer issues and the X-men and probably about as much overlap of the two as any living human. So it's worthwhile to read if you're interested in the topic.

 

I agree, it's mostly a good piece, but I guess I don't understand about how telepathy works in the X-Men universe, because Edidin stakes the entirety of her section about bisexual erasure (besides the bit where she says that sometimes bisexuality really is half-closeted homosexuality, which is whatever) on the argument that it's possible and even expected for a telepath to know you better than you know yourself, even in terms of basic unconscious drives, and for them to be able to tell when you're lying, even when you yourself have believed the lie for years. It makes me feel like the X-Men should be using their telepaths to give infallible tests for personality and vocation, too. I mean, I'm not even saying that it's an irredeemable argument, which really depends on the light in which it's presented, but it's definitely the weakest part of an otherwise broadly empathetic piece.

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The problem is that telepaths are fictional (at least in this case or something) and bisexual erasure, being outed or generally given the "you're GAY" treatment when men expose even the tiniest bit of interest in men are REAL things. 

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Apple Cider, on 23 Apr 2015 - 20:47, said:

The problem is that telepaths are fictional (at least in this case or something) and bisexual erasure, being outed or generally given the "you're GAY" treatment when men expose even the tiniest bit of interest in men are REAL things.

Except that Rachel Edidin's point isn't that the details of telepathy makes this better. Her arguments are that:

(1) Jean is not portrayed as a model here, she is portrayed as a confused teenager earnestly but imperfectly trying to help her friend. To the extent that people complain that this is not a perfect how to manual for being a good ally, they completely miss the mark.

(2) There is not one perfect coming out scenario. Some people (including Rachel Edidin herself and also me) had experiences like Bobby's (minus the telepathy, of course), and we were grateful for it, even if it's not in the best practices of how to come out.

(3) Arguments about bisexual erasure in this portrayal of Bobby conflate two discrete phenomena. Phenomenon 1: Bisexual erasure is real and it sucks. Phenomenon 2: Gay youth frequently do, in fact, go through a bargaining stage where they identify as bi. This doesn't mean that bisexuality is a phase. It does mean, though, that gay youth are frequently scared of fully accepting their identity as gay. The arguments about bisexual erasure in this case take an accurate portrayal of Bobby's bargaining and present it as a portrayal of problematic bisexual erasure.

Bobby's coming out narrative rings absolutely true to my own experience, from Jean's imperfection as an ally to Bobby's bargaining phase. I don't think this is anyone's intention, but the arguments about this scene as bisexual erasure have, to me, come across as an attempt to erase my own sexuality.

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Yeah, I think the fact that they're teenagers muddling through a difficult situation is more important than the telepathy to her argument.

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Except that Rachel Edidin's point isn't that the details of telepathy makes this better. Her arguments are that:

(1) Jean is not portrayed as a model here, she is portrayed as a confused teenager earnestly but imperfectly trying to help her friend. To the extent that people complain that this is not a perfect how to manual for being a good ally, they completely miss the mark.

(2) There is not one perfect coming out scenario. Some people (including Rachel Edidin herself and also me) had experiences like Bobby's (minus the telepathy, of course), and we were grateful for it, even if it's not in the best practices of how to come out.

(3) Arguments about bisexual erasure in this portrayal of Bobby conflate two discrete phenomena. Phenomenon 1: Bisexual erasure is real and it sucks. Phenomenon 2: Gay youth frequently do, in fact, go through a bargaining stage where they identify as bi. This doesn't mean that bisexuality is a phase. It does mean, though, that gay youth are frequently scared of fully accepting their identity as gay. The arguments about bisexual erasure in this case take an accurate portrayal of Bobby's bargaining and present it as a portrayal of problematic bisexual erasure.

Bobby's coming out narrative rings absolutely true to my own experience, from Jean's imperfection as an ally to Bobby's bargaining phase. I don't think this is anyone's intention, but the arguments about this scene as bisexual erasure have, to me, come across as an attempt to erase my own sexuality.

 

I respect Rachel Edidin a lot, and I agree with much of her article as well, but I'm still conflicted about entirely letting Bendis off the hook here. I guess the intention was to have a somewhat realistic (although telepathy is involved, so.....) non-perfect coming out story. Ok, I agree that not every coming out story needs to be the platonic ideal of all best practices and understanding. But as a comics reader, I just don't have the trust that this will be followed up effectively. If this leads to Young Jean (who is doing lots of non-consensual mind reading) being taken to task for defining Bobby's sexuality for him, not being aware of modern bisexual erasure and the issues around it ('full gay'), and otherwise being tone deaf in general (he's gay because his relationships with women 'failed'??), then great.

 

But doesn't Bendis have to have some awareness here of how this is going to play out? People will hear about the issue where Bobby is revealed as gay, this will spread far beyond comics readers who have the context of Young Jean vs. Original Jean, and without this context, it's easy to see this falling into all the old tropes, just like Apple Cider mentions:

 

The problem is that telepaths are fictional (at least in this case or something) and bisexual erasure, being outed or generally given the "you're GAY" treatment when men expose even the tiniest bit of interest in men are REAL things. 

 

I guess I'm conflicted about the helpfulness of a realistic, somewhat bad coming out story coming from a straight writer who seems not to be fully aware of the ramifications of what he's doing. I have no problem with realistic coming out stories, or with Bobby really being gay and closeted. I don't need him to be bisexual to validate my sexuality, but I do need writers to recognize the old insulting tropes when they accidentally fall into them.

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Big McLargeHuge, on 24 Apr 2015 - 00:28, said:

guess I'm conflicted about the helpfulness of a realistic, somewhat bad coming out story coming from a straight writer who seems not to be fully aware of the ramifications of what he's doing. I have no problem with realistic coming out stories, or with Bobby really being gay and closeted. I don't need him to be bisexual to validate my sexuality, but I do need writers to recognize the old insulting tropes when they accidentally fall into them.

I think it's maybe condescending to assume that Bendis unaware of what he's doing or that life experiences that resonate with my own are insulting tropes. Again, this reads to me as saying a realistic coming out process that reflects my own lived experiences (again, minus telepathy, obviously) is just a set of cliched tropes that should not be depicted. Surely the path to avoiding bisexual erasure isn't to erase representations of the coming out process of many gay people, right? This story is not a problem in itself. The problem is the larger context of a lack of bisexual characters in general, not the circumstances of Bobby's outing.

I also feel like the particular mode of the bisexual erasure argument coming up in discourse surrounding Bobby's outing, as well intentioned as it may be, fails to confront the privilege inherent in being able to pass by means of the option to engage in an opposite sex relationship. Many young gay people go through a bargaining period precisely because they want to hold on to the privilege of having the option of being in a relationship with someone of the opposite sex. By arguing that this bargaining should be suppressed or is otherwise unacceptable in fictional representations, I feel that people arguing that this is primarily an act of bisexual erasure (as opposed to gay bargaining) are not acknowledging the reality of the privilege that the option of an opposite sex relationship provides.

Again, this doesn't mean that bisexual people aren't real or that bisexuality is a phase. Bisexual people are real, and there should be more of them in media. But, for many people who are more or less exclusively gay, this is a real part of the coming out process, and acknowledging it does not erase bisexuality. In my opinion, an argument for better bisexual representation that rests on erasing the messy details of gay coming out experiences is not going to be productive as a critical apparatus for analyzing media, and it is also unlikely to be successful as a strategy for getting better bisexual representation.

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I think it's maybe condescending to assume that Bendis unaware of what he's doing or that life experiences that resonate with my own are insulting tropes. Again, this reads to me as saying a realistic coming out process that reflects my own lived experiences (again, minus telepathy, obviously) is just a set of cliched tropes that should not be depicted. Surely the path to avoiding bisexual erasure isn't to erase representations of the coming out process of many gay people, right? This story is not a problem in itself. The problem is the larger context of a lack of bisexual characters in general, not the circumstances of Bobby's outing.

I also feel like the particular mode of the bisexual erasure argument coming up in discourse surrounding Bobby's outing, as well intentioned as it may be, fails to confront the privilege inherent in being able to pass by means of the option to engage in an opposite sex relationship. Many young gay people go through a bargaining period precisely because they want to hold on to the privilege of having the option of being in a relationship with someone of the opposite sex. By arguing that this bargaining should be suppressed or is otherwise unacceptable in fictional representations, I feel that people arguing that this is primarily an act of bisexual erasure (as opposed to gay bargaining) are not acknowledging the reality of the privilege that the option of an opposite sex relationship provides.

Again, this doesn't mean that bisexual people aren't real or that bisexuality is a phase. Bisexual people are real, and there should be more of them in media. But, for many people who are more or less exclusively gay, this is a real part of the coming out process, and acknowledging it does not erase bisexuality. In my opinion, an argument for better bisexual representation that rests on erasing the messy details of gay coming out experiences is not going to be productive as a critical apparatus for analyzing media, and it is also unlikely to be successful as a strategy for getting better bisexual representation.

 

I sincerely apologize for implying that Bobby's coming out story is an insulting trope. I didn't mean that, but I definitely didn't express myself well with the way I put my argument together, and ended up being condescending, for which I apologize. I'm glad this resonates with people's real experiences, and that's why having this discussion is good!

 

Specifically, I felt like Bobby being confused about his sexuality, and then having it defined for him immediately in the moment by Jean is insulting. I know that many young gay people come out as bisexual first, then realize that it isn't accurate. I also know some young gay people come out as gay, then bisexual later. I just felt like that moment didn't have any time for Bobby to come to terms with this. It's a really fine line to walk between an accurate, uncomfortable coming out story where people make mistakes and one that feels like it's validating Jean's point of view, that she knows Bobby's sexuality better than he does.

 

It's definitely possible that the bisexual erasure argument has been a bit of a pile-on, I know I'm hypersensitive to it sometimes, as everyone is to their own lived experiences. And I do acknowledge that holding on to an imagined 'straight privilege' is definitely part of bargaining for many gay people early in the coming out process. I don't want to suppress that reality at all.

 

I would just push back a little bit on the reality of the 'straight privilege' that is gained by being bisexual. I feel that you are right in that yes, I could date a woman, go out in public, and be assumed to be straight. I have that privilege. But can't many single gay people also go out and be assumed to be straight? Is that a privilege that's worth discussing? I feel like the comparative disadvantage that is gained is bisexual erasure. In my possible M/F relationship perceived as straight, I'm now back in the closet again. So I either have to be aggressive about informing everyone about my sexuality, or have the fun times of being closeted back with me.

 

I completely agree with you that the way to better bisexual representation is not erasing accurate, messy details of gay coming out experiences. That's also partially on me for conflating the reality of this story, which is a gay coming out story with some unresolved issues (future Bobby primarily), with the potential for this being a bisexual coming out story. It's easy to go off with my thinking process a bit disordered, so seeing Bobby say 'Maybe I'm Bi' and Jean responding with 'They say everybody is' and defining Bobby's sexuality as 'Full Gay' hit me directly.

 

We might be at the classic point of nearly agreeing, but arguing over a small part of what's left over. In general, more accurate coming out stories and more representation are what is needed. I don't want to erase anyone else's experience to see my own.

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Yeah, I think the fact that they're teenagers muddling through a difficult situation is more important than the telepathy to her argument.

 

No, Edidin makes a big deal about how Jean has absolute knowledge of the truth, courtesy of her telepathy, and the reason that she's making a hash of it is because she's a teenager. You can talk about the emotional realism of coming out all you want, but it's definitely weird for that to be facilitated by such a perfect arbiter, who can accuse someone confused about their sexuality that they're lying to themselves and be depicted as in the right about it. Basically what Big said, especially this:

 

Specifically, I felt like Bobby being confused about his sexuality, and then having it defined for him immediately in the moment by Jean is insulting. I know that many young gay people come out as bisexual first, then realize that it isn't accurate. I also know some young gay people come out as gay, then bisexual later. I just felt like that moment didn't have any time for Bobby to come to terms with this. It's a really fine line to walk between an accurate, uncomfortable coming out story where people make mistakes and one that feels like it's validating Jean's point of view, that she knows Bobby's sexuality better than he does.

 

Like, the only reason it's presented as okay for Jean to pull that shit is because she knows better than Bobby, because she's a telepath and because she's more modern-thinking, and I can't get over that. The coming-out story could be messy without Jean walking all over her friend in her sassy "I'm a good ally" way. I'm clearly speaking from a lot less experience here, though, so I'll quiet down.

 

 

The problem is that telepaths are fictional (at least in this case or something) and bisexual erasure, being outed or generally given the "you're GAY" treatment when men expose even the tiniest bit of interest in men are REAL things. 

 

No, I agree, and I probably didn't articulate myself very well in my comment. It's just the usual problem in a lot of genre fiction that there are these wild magical powers everywhere, and somehow they're never used to make a situation better beyond how it could be in real life. If Jean's a telepath, surely she can feel Bobby's fear and confusion, so maybe she could use that to be the perfect facilitator who helps him confront his sexual identity without ever pushing him outside his comfort zone, instead of just dumping all of it on him at once and then pushing him into banter about how great she is and how gay he is.

 

Yeah, sorry. I don't even read comics, besides when I remember that Saga exists. I'll shut up.

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"Privilege" to "pass" as straight as a bisexual person is just another arm of heteronormativity, FYI. It's not a privilege to be mistaken as straight, it's just a very different part of living in a straight world that bisexual people have to deal with that is different from how gay people have to navigate the world. Please do not say that people "reading" me as a straight woman because I mention a boyfriend or have dated men or had sex with them is a privilege especially due to how misogyny intersects with this. 

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