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QUILTBAG Thread of Flagrant Homoeroticism

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The other side of this is that I don't believe that discrimination is something that should be protected as a religious right.

I agree, but that's a complicated fight as far as hate speech and people's right to believe are concerned. I strongly suspect that in the next few decades, religious communities and organisations will become much more self-selecting around gay rights.

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Can a religious organization say that it's against their religion for white and black attendees to use the same water fountains and get away with it? Jesus Christ that was an awful analogy, and I apologize for it, but I'm not editing it out!

 

There was a church not too long ago that refused to marry an inter-racial couple because the congregation threw a fit. So maybe not as bad of an analogy as you thought.

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I agree, but that's a complicated fight as far as hate speech and people's right to believe are concerned. I strongly suspect that in the next few decades, religious communities and organisations will become much more self-selecting around gay rights.

I strongly suspect that religious communities and organizations will start dying off, slowly but surely. But I guess that's a discussion for another thread. U:

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An idea I forgot to mention in my earlier post: how about if churches are only allowed to be selective about stuff if they forfeit any privileged status, such as being registered as a charity?

I don't know. I'd absolutely love for all churches to offer everything to everyone, but what if that genuinely does conflict with the fundamental principles of the region? Do we demand that those principles are ignored or revised? Isn't that a bit absurd? Should we just hope that the religious majority comes around to our way of thinking (if it hasn't already) and that the issue just kind of fades away? Removing all this discrimination would clearly be beneficial for society, but does doing so require that we undermine religion's place in society? Should we even be concerned with that? Is it at all practical to do so?

I strongly suspect that religious communities and organizations will start dying off, slowly but surely. But I guess that's a discussion for another thread. U:

I used to be convinced that that was just around the corner, along with the decline of the monarchy, but now I feel like cultural inertia is probably a much stronger force than either of those things could foreseeably surmount

I'm feeling increasingly bad about trampling what should be a celebration with my rubbish musings and uncertainty. Sorry! This is still great news and everyone should feel great about it!

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An idea I forgot to mention in my earlier post: how about if churches are only allowed to be selective about stuff if they forfeit any privileged status, such as being registered as a charity?

I don't know. I'd absolutely love for all churches to offer everything to everyone, but what if that genuinely does conflict with the fundamental principles of the region? Do we demand that those principles are ignored or revised? Isn't that a bit absurd? Should we just hope that the religious majority comes around to our way of thinking (if it hasn't already) and that the issue just kind of fades away? Removing all this discrimination would clearly be beneficial for society, but does doing so require that we undermine religion's place in society? Should we even be concerned with that? Is it at all practical to do so?

I used to be convinced that that was just around the corner, along with the decline of the monarchy, but now I feel like cultural inertia is probably a much stronger force than either of those things could foreseeably surmount

I'm feeling increasingly bad about trampling what should be a celebration with my rubbish musings and uncertainty. Sorry! This is still great news and everyone should feel great about it!

 

There's a lot of thorny theology involved in your questions, but I think that religion becomes naturally more inclusive over time -- just like at how the status of women has changed in the past hundred years or so. Obviously that change is not happening fast enough for many people, but I'm (naively) hopeful that over the next few generations the idea of gay people being denied religious ceremonies will become more socially repugnant.

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It's me, I'm the jerk in the QUILTBAG. (I'm sorry.)

As Sententia points out, the way it currently works here in the States is that marriage is wholly within the purview of the state government. You get a license, and can be married by a Justice of the Peace. Religious ceremonies are there for flavor, but have no legal import.

It sounded like you were saying that we should let the Churches have marriage, and call the legal thing a civil partnership, which in my eyes would be a significant step backward.

The other side of this is that I don't believe that discrimination is something that should be protected as a religious right. Whether the ceremonial marriage is legally important or not, I don't agree that a Church (or Mosque or Synagogue, etc.) should be allowed to be picky about it. Can a religious organization say that it's against their religion for white and black attendees to use the same water fountains and get away with it? Jesus Christ that was an awful analogy, and I apologize for it, but I'm not editing it out!

 

No worries, dude. That was my suggestion, though (I didn't say we should, I just said it seemed to me with very little thought to be a simplistic solution)! It seems to me that the reason most gay couples want to be able to get married is for legal rights, not to be part of a religious strand that hates them. So giving them the word marriage (which I think is generally now thought of as a religious institution with legal ramifications, not the other way around) would separate out the different issues at play - the government would have one less massive excuse to give equal rights, the discriminating religious strands would be shown to be even further behind the times (and possibly open to prosecution, but whether that would be desirable is a question that others have raised here - with my trademark lack of consideration I'm going to say it would) and it would hopefully encourage some gay couples to move to different churches.

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I used to be convinced that that was just around the corner, along with the decline of the monarchy, but now I feel like cultural inertia is probably a much stronger force than either of those things could foreseeably surmount

 

I think it is actually already starting to happen. Considering atheism is growing faster than any religion and the internet is becoming widely available for people around the world (heightening people's awareness of what goes on outside of their own little communities) it is getting increasingly unpopular to share the views that a lot of religious organizations have.

 

I think taking a look at how women's rights have evolved over the last couple centuries provides a good window into how the church will have to react to current events if they want to continue to exist in the mainstream. A big part of why women were treated so unfairly in the past had to do with religious teachings. The Bible is riddled with shit that clearly states that women are worth less than men and that they should be subservient to men and society reflected that for a long time. However, technology advanced, people became more aware, and shit changed because that way of thinking just didn't make any sense. In this case the church was forced to change despite the fact that the Bible still says all that horrible stuff. There may still be some fringe religions that hold on to that but most of society at this point probably looks at those religions as pretty loony. (And I literally just saw Argobot's post come in backing this up. YESSS!!!)

 

I think we are going through the same thing now with gay rights. From a legal standpoint it is clear we are headed in the right direction with the repeal of DADT and the more recent events but there is also positive progress already being made on the religious front especially with the decision by the Boy Scouts to drop their discriminatory practices. Religion will change or it will become a fringe hate group. And ironically in the process I think it will eventually lead to the decline of religion (a very good thing in my book) as people begin to realize that the book they have been following is not at all consistent with a society full of compassionate people.

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side note: I can't believe America got Don't Ask Don't Tell out of the military before they got it out of the fucking boy scouts.

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If you want to be a scout leader, you're still not allowed to be gay. One small step at a time, I suppose!

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There's a lot of thorny theology involved in your questions, but I think that religion becomes naturally more inclusive over time -- just like at how the status of women has changed in the past hundred years or so. Obviously that change is not happening fast enough for many people, but I'm (naively) hopefully that over the next few generations the idea of gay people being denied religious ceremonies will become more socially repugnant.

You may be right. As a relative outsider to religion (I used to be an Anglican, but only by default), I find it kind of strange how flexible people's religious beliefs are. If people's beliefs are so subject to what they find personally palatable, doesn't that make them question whether this really is a teaching from on high? Is the idea that it feels right because God makes it feel right? I guess with sufficient determination you can explain anything away.

 

I suppose an important factor is how much attention is actually paid to scripture and traditional teachings, and how many people are pretty much attached to a religion because they haven't put too much thought into it. (That's probably an unfair characterization.)

 

I think it is actually already starting to happen. Considering atheism is growing faster than any religion and the internet is becoming widely available for people around the world (heightening people's awareness of what goes on outside of their own little communities) it is getting increasingly unpopular to share the views that a lot of religious organizations have.

 

I think taking a look at how women's rights have evolved over the last couple centuries provides a good window into how the church will have to react to current events if they want to continue to exist in the mainstream. A big part of why women were treated so unfairly in the past had to do with religious teachings. The Bible is riddled with shit that clearly states that women are worth less than men and that they should be subservient to men and society reflected that for a long time. However, technology advanced, people became more aware, and shit changed because that way of thinking just didn't make any sense. In this case the church was forced to change despite the fact that the Bible still says all that horrible stuff. There may still be some fringe religions that hold on to that but most of society at this point probably looks at those religions as pretty loony. (And I literally just saw Argobot's post come in backing this up. YESSS!!!)

 

I think we are going through the same thing now with gay rights. From a legal standpoint it is clear we are headed in the right direction with the repeal of DADT and the more recent events but there is also positive progress already being made on the religious front especially with the decision by the Boy Scouts to drop their discriminatory practices. Religion will change or it will become a fringe hate group. And ironically in the process I think it will eventually lead to the decline of religion (a very good thing in my book) as people begin to realize that the book they have been following is not at all consistent with a society full of compassionate people.

While there's a lot of truth to what you say, I think religion dropping from society completely is a very different thing than atheism taking more of a hold. I'd have thought (and this is totally armchair speculation) that religious observance might reduce somewhat, but would settle at a relative equilibrium somewhere. And thinking about it, when it does so, presumably a greater proportion of the people remaining will be more fundamental and less flexible in their beliefs. Could the absence of more moderate voices in fact end up having a detrimental effect? Or am I just a horrendous pessimist?

 

Funnily enough, I'm currently reading a book called The Net Delusion, which questions technology's place in social and political change, with particular emphasis on the Internet. Of course technology is significant to social change, but according to Morozov its influence isn't absolute, and it isn't universally positive or even necessarily entirely predictable. He's pretty critical of the idea that simply giving people Internet access will automatically lead them to more enlightened and socially progressive attitudes. For many it just promotes complacency. The Internet is also a powerful tool for propaganda, intimidation and surveillance, and it can be used just as effectively to mobilize socially regressive groups as progressive ones.

 

I couldn't tell you precisely how right he is, but I am at least cautious of utopian interpretations of the Internet's place in society.

 

Despite all this miserable grumbling, I'm not entirely pessimistic. I'm just not entirely sold on the idea that because we have the Internet now people will finally stop turning to the supernatural to explain all of life's unanswered questions, or stop being disturbed by the unfamiliar or the different or whatever it is that drives all the hate. Things are getting better, but it could take a very long time.

 

Also, I don't know, all of what I've said might be complete horseshit.

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How much ground fascism gained there in the past fews years is utterly terrifying. I doubt it'll be long before people have to leave and claim political asylum.

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Also, I don't know, all of what I've said might be complete horseshit.

 

Nah, you made some good points.

 

I am definitely an optimist and I feel that the world is generally moving in the right direction despite the fact that we sometimes take a step backward instead of forward. To clarify on one of your responses, I don't think religion is on track to disappear as atheism becomes more common but I do think it will continue to lose popularity as it has been in recent years if their message doesn't change to fit with the progress being made by the rest of society. The simple fact that atheism is growing automatically means that religion is declining so there is a trend there, it's just a matter of how it all levels off in the end and it will probably be somewhere between our two points of view (or is it point of views?).

 

Regarding the internet thing, I didn't mean to imply that it is this thing that will bring knowledge to the masses. I really just think it is a tool that is capable of heightening people's awareness of what happens outside of their ecosystem while providing some information that they might not get in other media. In some cases I do think it can facilitate positive change, for instance, the fight to legalize marijuana wouldn't have progressed nearly as quickly if the internet wasn't around to present enough non-biased, factual information to make people realize that what they learned growing up wasn't necessarily true. The same goes for the topic of this thread. The internet is at least providing a voice for people and heightening awareness of what people in the LGBT community have had to go through and I think has been a factor in the positive change we've seen lately.

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Jesus o_0

 

Speaking of "Western Liberalism":

 

Same sex marriage made it through all the legislative barriers in the UK :tup:

 

Unfortunately this bit:

 

enable married individuals to change their legal gender without having to end their marriage

 

Is disingenuously worded. Trans people are still not granted the autonomy and rights everyone else has by default :tdown:

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For as much as I love Russia (and I love that damn country), its attitudes towards gay people have always disgusted me. The eagerness with which the post-Communist leaders (mostly Putin) embraced the Orthodox Church as a quick way to secure legitimacy has created some seriously disturbing social policies in that country (see also: Pussy Riot).

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teg: honk honk

teg: check this out

teg: http://www.travelandescape.ca/2013/07/russia-says-it-will-arrest-openly-gay-tourists/

teg: what the hell, Russia?

elmuerte: it's just a small step further than the USA or France

elmuerte: still boggles my mind on what the issue is

teg: ?

elmuerte: there's a lot of active and public anti gay marriage stuff going on in the USA and France

elmuerte: but why...

elmuerte: why do people care so much about other people's lives

elmuerte: it's doesn't even affect them

teg: it's completely different from USA or France; because those countries are locked in efforts to remove stupid rules that limit the freedoms of innocent people while Russia is attempting to introduce them.

teg: Also because they

teg: *they're absurdly draconian

teg: even orwellian

elmuerte: I don't agree. Although they haven't had this much success yet, there are large active and vocal groups in the USA and France to limit gay people.  And besides that, quite some western countries (including US and France) are quite draconian and beyond orwellian

elmuerte: "thought crime" exists in quite some western countries

elmuerte: Granted, Russia is quite bad.

teg: this isn't isolated groups we're talking about. This is the actual government

teg: passing actual laws to arrest innocent people

teg: not just picketing screwing people over financially or picketing funeral

teg: *funerals

elmuerte: they're not really innocent given the law exists

teg: say what?

elmuerte: they made it illegal to be openly gay

teg: please don't actually answer that.

teg: Innocence is not a measure of the law but a measure of one's character.

elmuerte: that's the ethical angle, not the democratic/separation of powers angle

elmuerte: if the government deems its illegal to be left handed, so it is

elmuerte: irrelevant how retarded it is

elmuerte: this is the reason why the people should always challange the government when they see fit

elmuerte: fyi, banning homosexuality isn't need at all. It used to be illegal in the UK to be gay

elmuerte: Alan Turning payed the price for this;

elmuerte: they was convicted of being gay in 1952, and punished with castration (in stead of prison)

elmuerte: eventually he killed himself

 

will somebody please back me up here

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... back you up in what way? I'm pretty sure I'm agreeing with you.

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Government sponsored imprisonment of gay people is way different than what is going on in the USA and UK, I think.

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Although it's not exactly precise terminology, I'd classify it as more than a "small step." It's huge and it's regressive.

 

Things are fucked up here in the US too, but they're getting better, not worse on the whole.

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Yeah, I really don't know how to address this properly. Even were the United States as regressive as its most conservative, fundamentalist elements say it should be, it would still be a long way from a place where people are thrown in prison for their sexuality.

 

Let me put it this way: a lot of America, including many members of law enforcement, is deeply and deplorably racist, but even so, it doesn't have a law on the books that makes it a crime to be a person of color. Even at the height of Reconstruction, it didn't. And even if (unimaginably) it did, its victims wouldn't be guilty and its execution wouldn't be justice.

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Ok, yeah so it's not a small step, or subject to making a step, it's a big thing. But I think that if there wasn't a lot of opposition some law makers in the US would also try to get laws like these.

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I had no idea the UK hadn't legalized same sex marriage until I read it was legalized.

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Civil partnerships have been possible for a while, but they were kind of like a second tier thing. Those partnerships can now be made into marriages if the people in them want to. It's just the clauses relating to trans people that are weird, and put their rights in the hands of their partner, who might not be co-operative or supportive in the event of someone realising or making known they suffer gender dysphoria.

 

On the Russia thing: I understand what you're saying elmuerte, but that was quite an antagonistic way to agree. I think you're right: There are people in most if not every country that would try to get those laws in place if they were given the opportunity. Plenty of the conservative party here voted against same sex marriage. Everyone else is right too though: What Russia have done is significantly different to most other countries in that they've not only proposed, but enacted those exceptionally brutal laws.

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