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Troy Goodfellow

Episode 221: Binding With Iron

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Troy and Bruce team up to discuss the track record of railroad games through strategy history, from 1830 through Railroad Tycoon and Rails Across America and beyond. How do these games distinguish themselves from each other? What is the attraction? Does Ticket to Ride count?

 

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Music Credits:

 

Wreck of the Old 97 - Johnny Cash, 1969
Hobo Bill - Jimmie Rodgers, 1929
All Board, Del McCoury, 2001
Big Rock Candy Mountain, Harry McClintlock, 1928
 
 

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The interspersed music definitely created a nice NPR vibe, great job Michael Hermes!

 

I actually played the Empire Builder & Iron Dragon board games in junior high school. Those games and Axis & Allies were my introduction to board games that offered any sort of strategic depth so they all have a soft spot in my heart. Sadly, the Empire Builder series of games are not well regarded on boardgamegeek because a lot of people look down on playing a game that uses crayons. Bruce is right though that they are excellent multiplayer experiences. If I remember correctly, Iron Dragon also had a pretty fascinating mechanic for building underground tunnels.

 

I never played Rails Across America, but the card mechanic for that reminds me of a board game called Inca Empire that is similar to a train game, but since it is set in the late 15th/early 16th century so you are building roads instead of rail tracks. That game has a phase where all the players play event cards, and the cards can either be negative effects (floods, disease, etc.) or positive effects (cheaper building costs, etc.), but the cards will effect two different players so you have to think if you play a card to give yourself a benefit which neighbor of yours also gets the benefit, and if that's something you really want to do.

 

I agree that the Ticket to Ride U.S. map is more strategically interesting, but what I like about the European version is it has some tracks where the cost is variable, and I like that wrinkle added to the base game mechanics.

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Another great episode. I especially enjoyed the music that was played throughout the episode to add a nice flavor and help break it up.

No mention of A-Train (early 90s, published by Maxis)?! Might be a bit biased since this was the first video game I purchased as a kid after reading a review in Macworld (I think). I enjoyed several hours of toying with the stock market, buying/selling businesses, setting train schedules, moving generic freight and passengers and balancing income/expenditures.

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I loved listening to this "oral history" of obscure games.

 

While interested in the history of railroads, I never played any railroad game - analog or digital - in my life ... until very recently. Of all the games, I stumbled over one, that is probably considered heretical in this circles here, of strategical masterminds: it's Railworks "Train Simulator 2012" (now 2013).

 

These folks from Great Britain, seem to have found the formula, how to milk the 'real' train fans ("train-fanning" is a term, I learned, just like "trainspotting"). They have about US$ 2000.- of content in the Steam Shop, to this date? The interactivity is rather limited. NOTHING about it is strategical or has  any 'depth' beyond, having to couple some trains, or arrive on schedule ... yet it is very addictive and very, very pretty. I would call it an 'ambient game', rather, than a simulation.

 

I am spending hours driving in one of the many - very accurately designed (old) - trains, while listening to podcasts(!) and looking at the landscape and dynamic weather effects. But, as mentioned, this thing reflects nothing what makes trains and railroads the crucial infrastructure of the industrial age so interesting. No economy, no entrepreneurship, no rivalry(!), no railroad building, no management of anything. The highlight, as a player, is to open the editor and create scenarios - or for advanced, dedicated types - build your own routes. Many people do. They sell their accomplishments, on their websites. Yet, everything stays superficial? The hardest thing in this 'game' is to keep the steam engine going, to brake dynamically, when going down the Cajon Pass, or to not drive too fast, keeping the commuters happy on the Amtrak.

 

Although, I am old enough, I never played any of the games mentioned on the podcast. Not even Railroad Tycoon! Did not catch my eye when it came out. I did not play many video games, until later in life. Now, I am interested to check each and every one Bruce mentioned.

 

Oh, and then there is one game, I have to travel pretty far, to play it one day: Brenda Brathwaite's "Train" from 2009 - a completely different "beast".

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There was an early question about the appeal of trains in the podcast; as someone with a couple of small kids, I think I can provide an answer for that one, at least on one level.  Trains are appealing for the same reason aircraft, ships, panzers, farm equipment and construction machinery are; they are huge machines that do big things.  It's a combination of awe and power fantasy.

 

The music interludes were nice, though for my tastes they could be shorter; as an audio shorthand for "subtopic change", 5 or 6 seconds is plenty.

 

I don't think I've played any train games since the 8 bit days, and I'm thinking that perhaps I'm missing out.  They raise interesting gameplay possibilities; one thing I don't think was explicitly mentioned (though it was implied several times) is that competing train lines can't cross, at least not without special dispensation from the geography.  The zero sum nature (there's a fixed amount of cargo to deliver at any given time, only one train can handle any given unit of cargo) means there is strong scope for competition.  The point that was made about player decisions changing the map is a vital one as well, and the economic sim on top is icing.

 

I definitely like the idea of Iron Dragon; the mechanics of the train game interest me far more than the historical minutia.  I'm more interested in the stats and how they affect the game than I am in (say) whether it's the Short or Long variant of the Peter Witt.

 

I wonder if you could make a kind of "7 Cities of Gold" meets "Iron Dragon"?  Hmm....

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To expand on the 7 Cities of Gold idea, I think it would potentially be interesting to have a game where you were trying to build a rail empire, but where the area you were trying to build it into was largely unknown.  Maybe you know that somewhere way over west there was a gold strike, or maybe rumors of faster access to spices.  Maybe (spot the Canadian...) you're trying to get a railway out there to prove you can get troops there fast enough to maintain your claim on it, whatever "it" turns out to be.  For whatever reason, you (and potentially your competitors) are striking out into the unknown and trying to steamroll infrastructure over whatever you find.

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To expand on the 7 Cities of Gold idea, I think it would potentially be interesting to have a game where you were trying to build a rail empire, but where the area you were trying to build it into was largely unknown.  Maybe you know that somewhere way over west there was a gold strike, or maybe rumors of faster access to spices.  Maybe (spot the Canadian...) you're trying to get a railway out there to prove you can get troops there fast enough to maintain your claim on it, whatever "it" turns out to be.  For whatever reason, you (and potentially your competitors) are striking out into the unknown and trying to steamroll infrastructure over whatever you find.

 

It sounds like you are describing Railroad Pioneer, which is a mash-up of RR Tycoon and an exploration game.

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Cool episode! I was glad to hear a shoutout to Wabash Cannonball. I don't think this was mentioned in the podcast, but apart from being an Ipod game, Wabash Cannonball is also a board game (the board game came first). It was released both under the name Wabash Cannonball, and under the name Chicago Express. Chicago Express has the better production values but is otherwise the same game. It is really a great board game and can be a nice introduction to auction games and to board games generally. It's not very complex, so if someone is looking for an intro to train games, you could do a lot worse than Wabash Cannonball/Chicago Express. And unlike Ticket to Ride, it actually is a for-real train game.

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It sounds like you are describing Railroad Pioneer, which is a mash-up of RR Tycoon and an exploration game.

 

Was it worth playing?  Has anyone tried it on a modern PC?

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It's worth the $5 that it currently sells for on Gamersgate, but not much more than that.  There's a video of the tutorial on YouTube. 

 

The idea that you have to send out explorers to discover full-grown towns and cities in the great unknown is pretty strange, but it resembles RR Tycoon enough to still make it mildly entertaining.

 

It runs on my XP machine.  I haven't tried it on anything more modern.

 

Was it worth playing?  Has anyone tried it on a modern PC?

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It is noteworthy that all of the railroad strategy games discussed in this episode are old games.  This genre seems to be life support, even though there are still Pulling Billy tournaments at many board game conventions.  There is more new railroad game activity right now in the tabletop world than there is in the electronic world, especially considering that a lot of the latter activity is the porting of board games like Ticket to Ride and Wabash Cannonball (also known as Chicago Express) to electronic platforms.

 

About the only place to find new railroad games on the PC these days are in the simulator world, either with Trainz Simulator 12 or Railroad Simulator 2013.

 

So, what is killing the railroad PC strategy game genre?  Any ideas, anyone?

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Doesn't "light at the end of the tunnel" refer to sunlight? That one will eventually find their way out? If it referred to an oncoming train, it wouldn't be a positive metaphor. No one would look forward to an oncoming train while they were in a tunnel.

 

Haven't played any railroad games yet, so I don't have any input in that regard. They sound like they'd be mildly interesting (for me), but since my theme/setting preferences are ancient times and futuristic, trains don't really fit. Maybe if it was a futuristic train game?

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Doesn't "light at the end of the tunnel" refer to sunlight? That one will eventually find their way out? If it referred to an oncoming train, it wouldn't be a positive metaphor. No one would look forward to an oncoming train while they were in a tunnel.

 

    The original metaphor was referring to sunlight.  The later, darker take on the metaphor was an oncoming train, originally alluding to a hopeful situation going sour.  So, whichever you like, really.

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A little late to respond, but I did enjoy your discussion of train games.

 

Of the games you mentioned, I have played and do still dabble with Railroad Tycoon 2, Rails Across America,and Ticket to Ride.  I think each of these games are very good at what they are trying to be.  Of course, no single game is everything to all game players.

 

Tycoon 2 was the more hardcore of the bunch and was most appreciated by players who wanted a deeper railroad/business strategy game.  I remember feeling that it was a game that took some time to learn, but was ultimately satisfying to those willing to make the investment.  Lots of scenarios available with the subsequent gold and platinum packs.  Still deserving of praise, all these years later.

 

I agree with the panelists completely in their comments about Rails Across America.  It really was a game that seemed like it should have done a lot better than it did with people, but it just couldn't gain any traction with players and many game reviewers--Bruce excepted. I still remember reading his write-up of the game, and I think that was the reason I went out and bought it.  I still dabble with it a bit even now and I'm trying to get my daughter and some of her friends who are Ticket to Ride junkies to expand their strategy horizons a bit by giving this game a fair chance on the home LAN.  Jury's still out on the experiment.  My take on why the game was not a critical success is that it got lost in the polarized space where most RR game fans were at the time.  It was too simplistic for the more hardcore players (e.g. RRT2), while also being a little too complicated for the light strategy crowd (e.g. Ticket).  A real shame this game sunk quickly into obscurity.

 

The classic game that has eluded me as a gamer all these years is 1830.  I don't know how I allowed this one to slip through the cracks.  I do intend to do something about it, but Bruce is right: the old DOS version has definitely not aged well, to the point of me uninstalling it years ago.  Although I understand Mayfair has reprinted the game, my perception is that the barrier to entry on this game is kind of high, given that the crusty old dogs who still play the tabletop (or emulated) version are a pretty hardcore batch after all these years.  Not trying to slight 1830 players, but are there really any "casual" players of 1830 out there after all these years?  If so, drop me a note, as I would love to learn how to play this game well someday.

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    The original metaphor was referring to sunlight.  The later, darker take on the metaphor was an oncoming train, originally alluding to a hopeful situation going sour.  So, whichever you like, really.

 

Thanks. I don't think I'd ever heard it used that way before the podcast. You and Troy are both Canadian, right? Maybe it's a Canadian thing. :)

 

Something I hear repeatedly that I don't get and find grating is that someone "booted" a game. Is this considered correct terminology? Wouldn't one "load" or "run" a game after "booting" an operating system?

 

Sorry for getting so off topic.

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Thanks. I don't think I'd ever heard it used that way before the podcast. You and Troy are both Canadian, right? Maybe it's a Canadian thing. :)

 

    Could be, or it could be a British thing; Canadian culture diverged from British culture rather later and less severely than the US did, and though we're now more affected by US culture than by British culture we're still somewhat in the middle.

 

Something I hear repeatedly that I don't get and find grating is that someone "booted" a game. Is this considered correct terminology? Wouldn't one "load" or "run" a game after "booting" an operating system?

 

    I'm not sure where it came from, but my guess would be it's from a console background; historically game consoles didn't have operating systems in the traditional sense, and the game itself was effectively the operating system.  Sega arguably changed that, at least in perception if not in practice; every Sega console from the SegaCD onwards had an "OS".  I use quotes because it was a pretty stripped down OS, mostly for dealing with system settings and to let you play CDs and the like, but it was kind of an OS, and if you popped the disk out of the machine it would return to the OS.

 

    Pretty much everyone in the console space went to that system once games started coming on disks, even the cartridge-based machines.  These days, your PS3, Wii or 360 is running a reasonable approximation of a full OS.  But back in the 8 bit and 16 bit days, when you put a cartridge in and turned the machine on, you were literally booting a game.

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    I'm not sure where it came from, but my guess would be it's from a console background; historically game consoles didn't have operating systems in the traditional sense, and the game itself was effectively the operating system. 

 

That makes sense I guess.

I picked up a used XBox 360 a while back and it's the first console I've owned. Before Mac and Windows machines, I played games on Commodore and a little on an old Zenith system (yeah). With a Commodore, you would just turn the system on and load a game. No noticeable boot time at all, though it then might take five to ten minutes to load a game. That's when you go make a sandwich.

I want to get a hold of one now just to put that Commodore GUI that's out there on it, and of course play some old games. I checked my company's writing style guide, and we're not to use the word boot at all in documentation.

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That makes sense I guess.

I picked up a used XBox 360 a while back and it's the first console I've owned. Before Mac and Windows machines, I played games on Commodore and a little on an old Zenith system (yeah). With a Commodore, you would just turn the system on and load a game. No noticeable boot time at all, though it then might take five to ten minutes to load a game. That's when you go make a sandwich.

I want to get a hold of one now just to put that Commodore GUI that's out there on it, and of course play some old games. I checked my company's writing style guide, and we're not to use the word boot at all in documentation.

 

There's a lot of good stuff on older consoles, though you can have a lot of it on emulators these days.

 

There are things I miss from the hardware of that era.  Instant boot.  No loud fans.  Games hadn't ossified into genres yet, so there was a lot more experimentation.  Computers that were programmable by default, without having to buy a compiler suite or join a developer program.

 

That said, the indie renaissance is helping with the game design problem, I don't miss floppy drives at all, I'd hate to try to live without the internet, and any of the computers sitting around me right now probably has more computing power and storage than the entire world did when the Vic20 shipped.  Possibly even with the C64 shipped.

 

One thing that seems to be trying to bring back the best of the 80s home computer era is the Raspberry Pi.

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No mention of an earlier Avalon Hill game, Dispatcher, in which two rival dispatchers tried to move train pieces across a rail system with two divisions.  One division had lots of inter-city traffic to deal with.  The other division had a steep grade requiring helper engines, of which the dispatcher had a limited supply.  Both players had to meet schedules for 1st and 2nd class trains while squeezing slow freight ni where they could.  An added annoyance was a stack of incident cards that might cripple a specific train or fog in the mountain pass, etc.  It was out in the late fifties, early sixties.  I have a copy that I still pulll out once in a while.  It's good solitaire since you are mainly fighting the schedule.

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