Recommended Posts

I would like to discuss the topic of permadeath in games.

 

Personally i think it renders every action you have done previously in the game pointless and basically removes any reason to play it.

 

Roguelikes just feel like character creation/level generation prototypes that have never been finished and "hardcore" modes just feels like i am playing a disposable character.

 

i like the fact that games use "hollywood magic" or i guess now it's well established "video game magic" to make the experience more enjoyable, if mario (and every other game) only had one life and you had to restart the entire game when you died I don't think i would have ever liked video games at all, i think quick saves were one of the best things to ever happen to action games and multiple quick save slots are even better, i don't like the trend of removing them and replacing them with checkpoints (that is consolification in my opinion) they are supposed to save you if you forget to quick save not replace them.

 

 I can only think of one game that is a roguelike/permadeath game that i actually think wasn't made worse by those features and that is FTL: faster than light and i would say the reasons for that is because you actually unlock things for the next game by dying (so not pointless) the game is small scale (so not much time wasted) and it is random so it is designed for multiple playthroughs (that linked with the small scale makes each game feel like different missions) but saying that i feel it would be better with some kind of load function because a silly mistake can kill most of your crew and therefore make continuing on pointless (i suffocate them all if that happens) and that is just one of those annoying game things were a captain of a ship would never in real life accidently order his crew to walk into a fire and they would do it when he actually meant to order them to sickbay.

 

i have heard people say that saving and loading removes any risk in a game, but the reality is that I'm not risking my life in a game so there isn't any risk (and there never will be no matter how hardcore you make the game) the risks i am taking is with my personal enjoyment so if i decide to go crazy and run into the middle of a firefight to get the kill (which is exciting and fun) i have a high chance of failure and a high chance i will be disappointed that i died, and if i do die, the next time i can try something different (likely something less risky) and i am again risking personal enjoyment because failing again would suck, whereas if the game said "game over" and i had to start all over again when i died the entire game would be a risk to my personal enjoyment so the entire game i would choose the least risky option and basically (to me) have no fun and i wouldn't enjoy that game.

 

what do you guys think about permadeath? and if you enjoy it, why? and most interesting to me, what ways do you think permadeath can be done well without doing the things i don't like about it, like making the game pointless, making characters disposable and encouraging me to take little to no risks?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm not sure I equate "play" and "progress". Games that are fun to play are fun to play, no matter to what level of progress is saved when the play is done. When I start a new game of Donkey Kong, I'm not bummed that I have to play that first level that I've played a million times over again, because I LIKE to play it. I rarely play games I like with the express goal of "beating" them. I replay the first episode of Doom constantly because I love the gameplay.

 

And one could easily argue that quick saves and infinite continues are actually the things that make characters feel disposable. I have no emotion seeing my character in Hotline Miami blasted in the face over and over. That dude is disposable because another will instantly spawn to take his place. But if I'm playing a roguelike, suddenly the character's life has tremendous value, and my investment in preserving it is greater.

 

Basically, the appeal of permadeath is that it raises the stakes, and therefore the drama and emotional intensity. If I like playing a game with permadeath, I'll gladly start over when I die. If I don't like a game, I probably won't play to the end of it no matter how accommodating it's save system is.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

but would you like donkey kong if you only had one life and because of that were forced to replay the first level over and over?

 

to me i think as you say it "raises the stakes" but it raises them so high that i don't ever want to take a risk because i don't want to have to replay the entire game while taking no risks to get to the part where i died only die again and do that over and over

 

 and i would say hotline miami is a mix of permadeath and loading, because you can't save the game during a mission (there are lots of time i would have wanted to) but when you die you don't have to restart the entire game.

 

i just had an idea of how i could like roguelikes and that would be checkpoints (even though i just said i don't like them) because it would be a tense game but have some releases of tension in the form of checkpoints however they were implemented in the game

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't see a huge difference between having one life and playing the first level over and over and three lives and playing the first level over and over. Either way, there is no saved progress. Most casual DK players rarely ever get to see the second level to begin with.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I mean, in Donkey Kong you die if you are hit once. So really, it comes down to being hit 3 times, 4 if you get 20,000 points. Most Roguelikes are more forgiving than that.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I grew up playing NetHack so I like permadeath & iron man mode just fine.

 

I think there are a lot of games that probably are poorly suited for permadeath and iron man mode, but on the other hand I can't think of any games that actually have these features that are worse off for having them.

 

Permadeath is a signal game developers use to indicate to the player that victory isn't the most important aspect of playing the game, it is the experiences surrounding a play through. A game really does need to be enjoyable whether you win or lose for permadeath to work. I think games like XCOM, Nethack, FTL, and Occult Chronicles happily meet that requirement.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I mean, in Donkey Kong you die if you are hit once. So really, it comes down to being hit 3 times, 4 if you get 20,000 points. Most Roguelikes are more forgiving than that.

i haven't played a donkey kong game in years, but if you complete a level then die in the second level do you have to restart the game?

 

I grew up playing NetHack so I like permadeath & iron man mode just fine.

 

I think there are a lot of games that probably are poorly suited for permadeath and iron man mode, but on the other hand I can't think of any games that actually have these features that are worse off for having them.

 

Permadeath is a signal game developers use to indicate to the player that victory isn't the most important aspect of playing the game, it is the experiences surrounding a play through. A game really does need to be enjoyable whether you win or lose for permadeath to work. I think games like XCOM, Nethack, FTL, and Occult Chronicles happily meet that requirement.

 

im my opinion XCOM would definitely be 100% worse if i had to play iron man mode, i wouldn't care about any of the characters and i would play the most boring way i can possibly think of and to me completing it is the the point of that game,  even with games like the morrowind series and the fallout series which i generally don't complete the ability to eventually complete it if i want to is one of the biggest motivators for playing it, like the whole time playing i am building a character that can eventually complete it if i wanted to 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I love playing Spelunky over and over again. It has some permanent unlocks which I appreciate, but never use the shortcuts I've unlocked. I wouldn't like Spelunky if the levels and loot were not randomly generated though. For me, it's very enjoyable to play through the first four levels, feeling like I've done an amazing job at accumulated hearts and great loot. Then I get to a jungle level and the caption says "It's dark, I can't see." And I'm like. . . ."no, please no." 

I really enjoy games in which I have all the cards stacked in my favor and then one bad thing leads to another until I lose it all. I have to feel like it was my fault though. 

In your original post, you talk about permadeath making your playtime seem pointless. I feel a need to point out that you have made progress, it's just not saved on your hard drive. You now have experience and a better idea of what to expect. Roguelikes allow players to experiment with different builds and different priorities and get quick feedback. The progress is your knowledge and skill as a player. 

Last night I was playing Dirt 3. While it's not a roguelike, I can get into the same core loop. Usually when I play racing games, I just play the same course over and over for about 30 minutes. It's about being able to not only take a corner at just the right angle and speed, but being able to do that for four corners in a row. And then running into a tree on the fifth turn and starting over. Pinball has the same appeal for me.

I actually am starting to feel a disdain for games where I do get progress saved to the hard drive. I'm stuck in Skyrim because I've forgotten what I was doing, or how to use any of my spells, but I don't want to start over because I get bored doing the missions a second time. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Personally i think it renders every action you have done previously in the game pointless and basically removes any reason to play it.

On the contrary, the presence of real, actual risk is the only thing that renders meaning to actions.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I love playing Spelunky over and over again. It has some permanent unlocks which I appreciate, but never use the shortcuts I've unlocked. I wouldn't like Spelunky if the levels and loot were not randomly generated though. For me, it's very enjoyable to play through the first four levels, feeling like I've done an amazing job at accumulated hearts and great loot. Then I get to a jungle level and the caption says "It's dark, I can't see." And I'm like. . . ."no, please no."

 

Spelunky combines all the worst aspects of permadeath—no saves, no way to recover health*, and an unforgiving time limit.  It is nothing but random punishment.

 

I played it nightly for a month and never improved.  I am just as bad at the game as if I have never played it.  There is no such thing as progress in Spelunky, and no reason to play unless you like to play the same level 4 times in a row because there's no different area after that*.

 

*Yes.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I just had the best game of Brogue after reading this thread. It had everything: fireballs, giant spiders, (ultimately fatal) roving bands of ogres. Ever ounce of knowledge that I have learned from my previous games of Brogue went I to keeping me alive during that game. Every time I've died to a spider bite, or flailed helplessly as the flames I just set travel down the web to me meant that this time I didn't blink when confronted with the spiders. It was the ogres that got me this time, because I've never met their war packs before. Next time I will know that I need to take down the shaman first or get the hell out before they wake up.

The last five minutes of my game were spent with me a quivering mess as I tried in vain to get out of the horrible messes I was in. And when it was all over and my corpse on the floor all I could thing was that I wanted to go straight back in and beating their asses this time. I don't know if i'll ever beat Brogue, or Stone Soup, of FTL, but I do know that I have an absolute ball playing them and they offer experiences that a game with a quick load never could.

Also, this game I had two flying monkeys for A long while until I accidentally stripped them of their magic powers:/ one soon died and the other was lost as I plunged two floors through the dungeon in quick succession.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I love playing Spelunky over and over again. It has some permanent unlocks which I appreciate, but never use the shortcuts I've unlocked. I wouldn't like Spelunky if the levels and loot were not randomly generated though. For me, it's very enjoyable to play through the first four levels, feeling like I've done an amazing job at accumulated hearts and great loot. Then I get to a jungle level and the caption says "It's dark, I can't see." And I'm like. . . ."no, please no." 

I really enjoy games in which I have all the cards stacked in my favor and then one bad thing leads to another until I lose it all. I have to feel like it was my fault though. 

In your original post, you talk about permadeath making your playtime seem pointless. I feel a need to point out that you have made progress, it's just not saved on your hard drive. You now have experience and a better idea of what to expect. Roguelikes allow players to experiment with different builds and different priorities and get quick feedback. The progress is your knowledge and skill as a player. 

Last night I was playing Dirt 3. While it's not a roguelike, I can get into the same core loop. Usually when I play racing games, I just play the same course over and over for about 30 minutes. It's about being able to not only take a corner at just the right angle and speed, but being able to do that for four corners in a row. And then running into a tree on the fifth turn and starting over. Pinball has the same appeal for me.

I actually am starting to feel a disdain for games where I do get progress saved to the hard drive. I'm stuck in Skyrim because I've forgotten what I was doing, or how to use any of my spells, but I don't want to start over because I get bored doing the missions a second time. 

 

i like random levels in a game that is the part of roguelikes i like but what is the point of testing builds with no goal or endgame it's useless knowledge and useless skills if there isn't anything to achieve with that knowledge and skill, if roguelikes had a goal and an endgame like Diablo it would have purpose 

 

On the contrary, the presence of real, actual risk is the only thing that renders meaning to actions.

as i explained there isn't any real risk in a game, the only risk in a game is the risk of not enjoying myself, dying in a permadeath game just makes all you have done go away and to me that isn't fun in fact it's the opposite to fun and because i would wan't to avoid the opposite of fun so much i end up having as little fun as possible just to avoid it

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The goal in most roguelikes is to get the orb/sceptre/maguffin and get the hell out of the dungeon and onto the scoreboards.

Alternatively, if they float your boat, (and/or if goal one is unobtainalbe dur to jncompetence) the goal is to have fun dying.

When you at the game of rogues, you either win or you die.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I've never had fun dying unless i was just about to respawn/load, like in dwarf fortress the motto or whatever is have fun losing (or something similar) but no, i have fun making an ordered and safe fortress, the whole point is to not lose

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

As i explained there isn't any real risk in a game, the only risk in a game is the risk of not enjoying myself, dying in a permadeath game just makes all you have done go away and to me that isn't fun in fact it's the opposite to fun and because i would wan't to avoid the opposite of fun so much i end up having as little fun as possible just to avoid it

Your position is clear, and undoubtedly you are on the side of the majority (though possibly not within this community).

 

on the other hand, there's also a lot of people who feel the opposite way. Is there something you'd like to get out of this thread? You don't seem interested in finding out why people like permadeath.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I like permadeath because win/loss conditions are fun. In games without permadeath there is really no way to actually "lose". What's the point of playing a game you can't lose? 

 

It's the same in sports- a sport is fun because you can win or lose, not despite the fact that you might lose. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Your position is clear, and undoubtedly you are on the side of the majority (though possibly not within this community).

 

on the other hand, there's also a lot of people who feel the opposite way. Is there something you'd like to get out of this thread? You don't seem interested in finding out why people like permadeath.

 i am trying to figure out if there is some way that they wouldn't be opposite, like how you can have two totally different games that somehow give you the same feeling when you play it, maybe there could be a way to have something that is similar to permadeath that wouldn't make me feel like it was pointless but also have something similar to loading without it feeling (for people like you) like there is no risk, like maybe there are games that seem to match that description, or just trying to figure out what mechanics could do that.

 

i like a game that is hard even with loading.

 

@I Saw Dasein

but what is the point of playing a game you can't win?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Demon/Dark souls are the immediate compromise that springs to mind. Death has a potential real cost but you get one do-over, and you never actually lose anything meaningful.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Demon/Dark souls are the immediate compromise that springs to mind. Death has a potential real cost but you get one do-over, and you never actually lose anything meaningful.

humm, i have not played them, and i have never heard them described like that, i have always heard they are totally hardcore, so i have avoided them, but maybe you're right and i should give them a try (dark souls only because i don't have a PS3)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

How about something like DayZ? Remove permadeath from that and you'd probably lose most if not all of the tension. Permadeath for that game means that each character you play with has his own unique story with a beginning and, eventually, an end. And the end really will suck after all the time you've invested into your character. DayZ's survival system (food, drink, heat, etc.) require you to get into action so no matter what you'll be forced to take risks. Some of the tensest moments in any video game I've ever played have been in both DayZ and Arma 2 and 3. I think my point is that sometimes it's about the journey, not the destination.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

How about something like DayZ? Remove permadeath from that and you'd probably lose most if not all of the tension. Permadeath for that game means that each character you play with has his own unique story with a beginning and, eventually, an end. And the end will really suck after all the time you've invested into your character. DayZ's survival system (food, drink, heat, etc.) require you to get into action so no matter what you'll be forced to take risks. Some of the tensest moments in any video game I've ever played have been in both DayZ and Arma 2 and 3. I think my point is that sometimes it's about the journey, not the destination.

there are 2 big reason why dayz doesn't appeal to me 1) permadeath, why put the time into playing if you just lose it all when you die 2) no goals or end game, there is nothing to do except survive and survival without a goal is pointless (i think 2 is actually the bigger reason, like if i could escape the island and win i would be more inclined to try it)

 

basically summed up with what i said earlier "what is the point of playing a game you can't win?"

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@I Saw Dasein

but what is the point of playing a game you can't win?

 

Rougelikes are more about the journey rather than the destination in my mind. The fun in these games (All games really) lies in the moment-to-moment gameplay, not in seeing the "Game over, you win" message. 

 

Sure it can bring you a sense of accomplishment (Which I understand that people appreciate) but surely it should be the gameplay that is the most fun?

 

That said though, many rougelikes can be beat though. FTL, Binding of Isaac and Dungeons of Dredmor all have endings. They're just hard to reach which adds further satisfaction once you actually manage to beat it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

there are 2 big reason why dayz doesn't appeal to me 1) permadeath, why put the time into playing if you just lose it all when you die 2) no goals or end game, there is nothing to do except survive and survival without a goal is pointless (i think 2 is actually the bigger reason, like if i could escape the island and win i would be more inclined to try it)

 

basically summed up with what i said earlier "what is the point of playing a game you can't win?"

 

1) I'm pretty sure I elaborated on my why. Which I assume you don't agree with then, but that's how it is for me. So, ok.

2) It's not true that there are no goals. It's what you make of it; you set your own.

 

Whenever I talk about DayZ with friends who played it too, you always end up recounting the war stories. The stories that come out of your playthrough, that's where the value is for me. I own that; that is my story.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I Saw Dasein

but what is the point of playing a game you can't win?

AFAIK basically all rogue-likes have win states. I'm having trouble thinking of a game with permadeth that doesn't have a win state. I guess something like Tetris might count? If you screw up once, game over.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now