It's not the years, Indie, it's the mileage

[dartmonkey]

I just watched a trailer for Hohokum on PS4. It looks like Chasing Aurora with a dash of LocoRoco/Patapon. Aesthetically it was fine but it made me feel meh. No, more negative than 'meh'. It evoked the same feeling as when I hear a noodle-y little acoustic track by some skinny, whispy, Zoey Deschanel band. It's so earnestly kooky. It's so Radio 1 Live Lounge and lo-fi and graphic design-y and knowing.

My point, if I have one, is that I'm feeling burnout with that lo-fi indie aesthetic. All the wantonly retro 2D hipster pixel games are wearing me down. I appreciate an in-joke as much as the next man but I feel like I can describe too many games now as a mix of X and Y with a sprinkling of Z. I'm getting tired of irony and the knowing nod and wink. One thing I like about Nintendo is that they're unashamedly colourful and positive, and they're generally looking forward, even when everyone wants them to look back. It seems everything else is grey near-future sci-fi shooters or throwback tributes.

 

Maybe I'm just too old for this shit. No, damnit - I'm 29 for Christ's sake! Maybe I'm just underwhelmed by an innovationless E3. Maybe I should give Oculus Rift a blast. Whatever the case, make me feel better by agreeing or telling me I'm a fucking eejit who needs to smell the roses over the shit whence they rose.

[clyde]

What are some comparable 2D indie games whose aesthetic you feel is more innovative and interesting?

[thestalkinghead]

there are so many indie games that you have to just keep looking untill you find one that is interesting for you, but this looks kinda interesting but it would depend on the price as to whether i would buy is as i can only imaging a couple of hours of interest for me, but i think that is one of the great things about indie games is that they are cheap enough just to buy as an experience or just a one off play and they don't all need to be more than that

[I_smell]

"Man Im burnt out on all this retro, throwback, lo-fi, nostalgia-grab, recycled boys-club, in-joke livin in the past! Now let me tell you about these NINTENDO guys..."

Come on, buddy!

You can't downplay HOHOKUM and then commend Nintendo for being "Unashamedly colourful and positive", that's just bonkers.

[Twig]

Yeah I was a little thrown off by the "Nintendo is always looking forward" comment. I can empathize with your exhaustion of indie games like that MAYBE I SUPPOSE IF I HAVE TO but to then praise Nintendo? Nah, I can't back that, buddy. Sorry. ):

[sclpls]

I'm with you in finding the indie games that tend to get hyped too precious for my tastes. I greatly admire people like Vic Davis (speaking of whom, the Occult Chronicles beta is now available for purchase, check it out if a Lovecraftian roguelike sounds appealing) who are designing incredible and unique games, but because they lack the sexiness of a company like Capybara don't get the same recognition.

[dartmonkey]

I'm not getting at Hohokum specifically - it looks nice enough. And I can't think of any 2D indies that are more innovative or interesting. That's kinda the point.

 

With Nintendo it's more an issue of general positivity (which isn't really relevant to the indie burnout other than a lack of cynicism). I appreciate they're knocking out Mario Kart 8 and New Super Luigi, and Pokemon, etc, but as I said, I 'generally' think they're the most forward looking of the big 3. They're not trying to be hip, they just plough on with primary colours and ideas here and there.

[I Saw Dasein]

I feel like dartmonkey is kind of talking about "new sincerity," meaning a rejection of the ironic or "hip" in favour of unabashed enjoyment of a cultural property. So, Nintendo isn't necessarily forward thinking, but Nintendo first-party games are totally unpretentious and enthusiastic. 

[chummer]

I agree with some of your criticisms, but not all. First you talk about being tired of whimsy and earnestness. There's nothing wrong with having tastes, so I can only disagree with you on the level of 'well, that's just what I like.' That being said, I think there are still games that use whimsy with sincerity and do it wonderfully. I encourage you to check out RunMan and the recent Hugpunx by Merrit Kopas; I found both really endearing without being saccharine.

 

I'm with you on the overuse of the early Nintendo aesthetic. It's kind of exhausting how many indie games I can describe as "a 2D [genre] with retro inspired pixel art and fake chiptune music." I think that's just a bigger problem of nostalgia worship though within the video gaming community that I wish would go away. On a side note, I actually think Proteus was awesome in how it took an even earlier graphical style and made something beautiful with it. I'm also quite interested to see how kids born in the mid-90's will adapt the ugly, early polygon stuff that everyone seems to agree is hideous and make something cool with it.

 

Could you clarify on where you're getting all these ironic vibes from? Perhaps I'm misinterpreting, but I feel like I see more of the new sincerity that I Saw Dasein pointed out. For instance, the Team Meat guys seem to understand that all that old 90's console stuff was kind of dumb, but they still love and celebrate it. It's more "It's really funny how silly things were" as opposed to "It's really stupid how silly things were."

 

Lastly, do you think it's logical of you to expect innovation from risk-aversion companies? While high-production games can have fantastic execution on ideas, they're often ideas that we've seen over and over. Titanfall looks really pretty. The Last of Us looks really pretty. I'm sure they'll both competently pull off their ambitions, but I think their ambitions aren't anything new. I would say look to indie games to explore new spaces, but that gets right back to the beginning of your complaints.

 

Also, because I mentioned it and really love this video, here's the RunMan trailer.

 

from http://vimeo.com/user1127605 on http://vimeo.com.

[SecretAsianMan]

I just got the thread's title reference after reading all the posts, going to the current episode thread, then coming back and saying "What a minute..."

 

Also I have nothing useful to contribute to this conversation.  That is all.

[BigJKO]

I understand being tired of the retro aesthetic, but I can't really see it in Hohokum. It reminds one of LocoRoco, but surely that's not old enough to qualify as retro. Pixel-art, while I find it charming still, I can understand people being a bit tired of. But this, this is sharp, 2d modern design with a nod towards Yellow Submarine-style design.. maybe? Looks great, to me. I wouldn't call it lo-fi or retro.

[thestalkinghead]

I understand being tired of the retro aesthetic, but I can't really see it in Hohokum. It reminds one of LocoRoco, but surely that's not old enough to qualify as retro. Pixel-art, while I find it charming still, I can understand people being a bit tired of. But this, this is sharp, 2d modern design with a nod towards Yellow Submarine-style design.. maybe? Looks great, to me. I wouldn't call it lo-fi or retro.

yeah i am a bit tired of retro style but this aint that, it is a bit kooky... yeah i used the word kooky but maybe if you lump everything kooky or quirky into one thing you could get tired of them, dartmonkey my recommendation would just be to ignore those types of games, nobody says you have to like them, in my opinion indie games doesn't mean weird games (sure there are a lot of weird indie games) there are lots of indie games of all kinds of genres and there are lots that are cheerful and sincere, maybe you just associate the term indie with hipsters and imagine that there is some bullshit hidden meaning or nod in all indie games when really that is only a small section (as small as the hipster demographic) of what indie games have to offer 

[doctorfrog]

It's hard for me to read this as anything more complicated than "I am not interested in this video game, and it makes me sad."

 

It's ok to like or not like a thing for whatever reason.

[dartmonkey]

It's not even that I don't like the look of Hohokum. It looks great. I have a more general feeling that the same aesthetics are cropping up too often and describing things becomes a case of 'Limbo crossed with Castlevania in space' or something similar. The new Insomniac one looks like TF2+Mirror's Edge+Jet Set Radio. Driving games are homogenising into the same thing. I feel I can describe too many games as an equation, regardless of their quality. Or I see the same look in a utility company/boutique yoghurt shop/service provider advert. It's a general malaise with several styles which I've taken out on Hohokum and indies. It's not about them, specifically. There's nothing in the upcoming console gen that looks remotely new.

SgtWhistlebotom mentioned Titanfall and The Last of Us and those two got me into this funk. The Last of Us is reportedly fantastic but any gameplay vids or pics I see completely turn me off. It just looks like Uncharted that looks like Assassin's Creed that looks like Metal Gear/Halo/Destiny/Titanfall/whatever. Ooo, now Metal Gear has a desert bit! They're all beautiful and competent video games at the very least, but nothing new and I don't think an outsider could tell between them from videos. Nintendo are the only ones skirting with something different with the second screen but they've shown nothing that really uses the thing beyond off-TV play.

So I look to the smaller studio games and, again, very similar styles seem to be popping up. I'm being bleak, and of course I can ignore them. And there are some interesting looking things about and I have dozens on the 'to play' list (eg. Proteus). Tengami looks nice. RunMan looks like MS Paint fun.

 

Edit. I mean MS Paint fun genuinely. I like the style.

[osmosisch]

This seems relevant.

 

If there be nothing new, but that which is 
Hath been before, how are our brains beguiled,
Which, labouring for invention, bear amiss 
The second burden of a former child. 
O, that record could with a backward look,
Even of five hundred courses of the sun, 
Show me your image in some antique book, 
Since mind at first in character was done! 
That I might see what the old world could say 
To this composed wonder of your frame; 
Whether we are mended, or whe'er better they,
Or whether revolution be the same. 
O, sure I am, the wits of former days 
To subjects worse have given admiring praise.

[thestalkinghead]

you have played too many games to not see the similarities between games, i recommend playing even more games until they are all similar enough that you look for the differences not the similarities (the differences are the fun part)

[dartmonkey]

Now that's a plan! Games: the cause, and solution to, all life's problems

Thinking back, Bioshock Infinite put me on a downer a couple of weeks back and E3 has stirred it up. My expectations were sky-high. It was never going to meet them, though I didn't think it would miss them by so much. Then I saw Order 1886 and It looks like Dishonored and Infinite's child. I dunno. Apologies for my rambling - it's all a bit scattershot.

[youmeyou]

While I agree there are plenty of games that are derivative in their aesthetics, it's as simple as paying attention to the margins to get that novel look you crave. It's the same with graphic design, most artists just look at the past work of other artists in the same field for reference, which results in an overwhelmingly homogenous mainstream look to things. But there are and will always be those artists that exist at the margins (just like there will always be artists that ride with the trend).

 

It does sound a bit like you're burnt out from video games. Disparaging Last of Us based on a few video clips seems kneejerk reactionary against AAA. I have a bit more hope for it especially after reading the Tom Bissell piece mentioned in the relavent thread. http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/9366466/tom-bissell-naughty-dog-latest-game-last-us

 

As for indie games, you don't even have to look very hard to find fresh new aesthetics. We are in the best possible time ever for cool original art direction in games since the barrier of entry has been dropped so low.

 

Memory of a broken dimension stands out as a game I have trouble comparing to anything. 

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=xxvrRXoUjJA

 

And in the same sitting you can play Lake of Roaches, untold number of Twine games, Candy Box, and then you can always play games that use a pixel aesthetic but have dynamic fascinating mechanics like Papers Please and Cart Life.

[Murdoc]

I didn't see anything particularly low-fi about Hohkum, other than it was in 2d? I could be wrong, but the stuff that comes to mind is low-brow pop surrealism, sort of like katamari damacy vibe. 

 

I don't really consider any of that low-fi or retro. The animation was fluid, the images were as sharp as they needed to be. If you're annoyed because it doesn't feel authentic or isn't a billion rendered polygons, I don't know what to say. There's a lot of stuff happening out in the graphic design/illustration world and this just seems to be referencing a deliberate style that has nothing to do with video games.

 

Sorry if you think some art styles are pretentious, bro.

[Zeusthecat]

I've been thinking about this argument and I have to agree/disagree.

 

I agree in the sense that almost every game now can be described visually as x crossed with y crossed with z.

 

I disagree in the sense that there are so many fucking games that represent such a wide range of artistic styles that it is becoming increasingly difficult (maybe even impossible at this point?) to create a truly unique style that isn't in some way influenced by another game's style. I mean, you have abstract, black and white, stark and creepy, vibrant and colorful, hyper stylized, retro, kindergarten art, ultra realistic, etc. I am not at all bothered by things being influenced by other things. If I was I would probably hate all movies, music, and games.

[Murdoc]

I agree in the sense that almost every game now can be described visually as x crossed with y crossed with z.

Well if we are talking art forms as a whole than, yeah. It's impossible to say something is truly original simply because that's not how the human brain creates things. We're in a zeitgeist, and even before that that has to be certain conditions to the human brain that would allow the concept of a dragon to be conceived in multiple cultures and continents with no connection whatsoever.

 

Video games as a whole, visual, audio,technology, interactivity, etc... is a new art form, to expect something original in any one of those single categories isn't impossible, but as we've seen over 30+ years, it's rare. It's the combination of all those elements that makes a game "unique" or special.  

 

As for pure visual art in games, we have thousands of years of art movements to draw upon and right now it often feels like an uphill battle with traditional preconceived art styles and the way video game art is made for an interactive game. We're still figuring out how to mimic traditional art in these things, in a variety of styles, and if by looking where the big companies are putting their money, there isn't much exploration in this area, so it's going to be slow.

 

Compare the evolution of painting, a medium that was constrained by technology (Certain types of paints and pigments simply weren't available at points in history) and how , at least in Europe, was mostly dominated by those with money, royalty, religion, and what was created for the longest time because of that. It's interesting to see what they went through and how there are parallels to the state visual art is in games.

 

Maybe 50-100 years from now we can hope for video games to spawn new art movements in society, but right now we're just learning to crawl  on the visual side of things in terms of content creation and artistic expression. 

[Super Blizzard]

I'm getting tired of irony and the knowing nod and wink

 

While it's totally realistic that a good portion of indie developers are ironic hipsters, I think you're missing that a lot of these 'retro pixel-y' games are made to look that way because the devs legitimately enjoy the way it looks, just like how -certain controversial filmmakers- use throwback techniques from grindhouse and martial arts films, not as an ironic nod, but as a genuine aesthetic choice.

I know I personally develop lo-fi games because I like the way it looks, it has a feeling to it that I just don't get from games where I can't see the pixels all up in my face-space.

[dartmonkey]

Maybe 50-100 years from now we can hope for video games to spawn new art movements in society, but right now we're just learning to crawl  on the visual side of things in terms of content creation and artistic expression. 

Though games haven't spawned new art movements, their aesthetics have been thoroughly cannibalised by other media and I see it everywhere, especially in advertising (where my knee-jerk reaction is to assume, perhaps unfairly, it's been calculated that X+Y will make me like service/product Z, where X and Y have been lifted wholesale from another source). Here's some stills from 3 adverts that came to mind and they each recall several games.

 

http://i.ytimg.com/vi/qZeSVvK9z44/0.jpg British Gas

http://adsoftheworld.com/files/psyop_donkey_1_0.jpg ING Direct

http://files.coloribus.com/files/adsarchive/part_1204/12040355/file/orange-orange-unlimited-small-56987.jpg Orange

 

I'm not saying games originated these aesthetics but styles proliferate everywhere until your game looks like your website looks like the ad from your gas supplier, and they're now commonly seen beside one another (blog banners run over embedded videos that pipe Dew and Doritos ads before every music video and movie trailer, all on the same devices and a swipe away from your game). Apps, games and ads are sometimes difficult to tell apart and perhaps this homogenisation and co-opting of styles across media (plus the announcements of the predictable franchise tentpoles) is making me feel that there's less originality than there really is. People are right - there's plenty out there that's different.

 

 

While it's totally realistic that a good portion of indie developers are ironic hipsters, I think you're missing that a lot of these 'retro pixel-y' games are made to look that way because the devs legitimately enjoy the way it looks, just like how -certain controversial filmmakers- use throwback techniques from grindhouse and martial arts films, not as an ironic nod, but as a genuine aesthetic choice.

 

I enjoy that retro pixel-y look. The Tarantino comparison is interesting - the process I went through with his films mirrors how I'm feeling now. First I was shocked, then wow, that's incredible! Post-Jackie Brown, his films gave diminishing returns, until now I'm faintly worried by the violence - it seemed to mean something before. That aesthetic choice has lost its relevance for me and it seems he's nodded and winked his way into a hole he can't escape from. That's not to say there's not fun to be had, but the juxtaposition of pulp and history isn't always satisfying far beyond the trailer.

[Super Blizzard]

Yeah, fair enough. Suppose it's just a matter of preference at the end of the day.

 

I still love Tarantino movies too, so that's probably telling the whole story right there.

[Wodenpwn]

The widespread use of 2d and "retro" art styles in indie games is largely because the production pipeline is within reach of a small team. Better tools are making that less of an issue though. I tend to judge craft within a style rather than the use of the style itself. A good example of excellent craft is Dishonored, which is technically not very impressive, but still looks amazing because the craft of the painted textures and character designs. Is it retro because it could have been made 5 years ago?