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Double Fine - Kickstarter - MASSIVE CHALICE

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The Chalice of Malice! Double Fine made another fun Kickstarter video. Nuts.

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Awesome pitch video, I LOL'ed. :tup: Not sure if I want to back it. I'm not really into turn based strategy games, I think.

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This has turn based tactical combat, which I love, and also seems kind of like concepts from CK2, but with an interface I can wrap my brain around. Definitely hits a sweet spot... so backed.

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Damn that sounds awesome. Crusader Kings + Final Fantasy Tactics? Yes please!

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If this had literally anything involving gameplay I'd be all over it but as it stands I'm holding off.

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If this had literally anything involving gameplay I'd be all over it but as it stands I'm holding off.

 

That's interesting.  Double Fine told us nothing except for a genre for their first Kickstarter and that was enough for me.  We've got far more information this time around, but I suspect this just isn't my kind of game.

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That's interesting.  Double Fine told us nothing except for a genre for their first Kickstarter and that was enough for me.  We've got far more information this time around, but I suspect this just isn't my kind of game.

 

I don't get it either. But maybe people's expectations of kickstarters have changed since then?

 

Anyway, I backed it. I'd back anything by Doublefine so I'm glad it's also something that sounds like a really cool game.

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Haha that video was brilliant. I'm intrigued by this and will probably back it just because the setting interests me and it's Double Fine. Never really played turn-based games before so I might enjoy.

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Last year, you Kickstarted Double Fine Adventure, shattering records and bringing video games to the Kickstarter spotlight! Now known as Broken Age, that game is in full production and is already a beautiful and unique experience—but the Broken Age team only represents a third of our multi-game studio.

Double Fine’s goal is for all our teams to remain independent and responsible directly to their players. Kickstarting MASSIVE CHALICE allows us to maintain a pure creative vision, put out updates on our own schedule, respond to feedback without roadblocks, and release it all DRM-free.

 

Maybe I'm misunderstanding all this, but does this mean that the goal is for Kickstarters to just be the way Double Fine operates from now on? That all projects would ideally be Kickstarted, and not funded through more traditional means? I didn't really follow the original Double Fine Kickstarter, was this part of the mission statement from the beginning? Or am I just misinterpretting all of this?

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Woah, I did a double take when I saw it was already at 350k from 8k just a few hours ago.

 

EDIT: ...or maybe that was yesterday, whenever the Broken Age backer email came out.

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The idea that heroes can die but still pass on some of their power to their children is kinda of neat, but the system they mentioned for this (the relics) is the most exiting thing to me. It's obviously pretty common to have stories with some artifact that was passed down from generation to generation, but giving actual gameplay significance to that takes the family sword from being neat to being awesome.

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Maybe I'm misunderstanding all this, but does this mean that the goal is for Kickstarters to just be the way Double Fine operates from now on? That all projects would ideally be Kickstarted, and not funded through more traditional means? I didn't really follow the original Double Fine Kickstarter, was this part of the mission statement from the beginning? Or am I just misinterpretting all of this?

It sounds like their mission is "remain as financially in control of our games as possible."

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I think maybe I just don't understand enough about how games publishing works. And also I am maybe overly sensitive to the trend of established entities with access to traditional funding using crowdsourcing to take advantage of their fanbase*.

 

With something like say, The Cave that's published by Sega or Brutal Legend which was published by EA, what kind of financial control do they not have? 

 

*Though I do want to emphasize that I don't look at something like this the same way as fans of Veronica Mars giving 5 million dollars to Warner Brothers. Double Fine is not WB, the backer perks are better (a copy of the game at the 20 dollar level is super-reasonable, and essentially the same as pre-ordering it), and Double Fine's track record with doing great stuff with their Kickstarters is pretty well-established.

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Well, from what I understand (and others on this forum might have a better understanding than I do, so if I'm incorrect please let me know) but I believe that in the case of a traditional publishing method, the publisher providing the funding is the one who ultimately has control over the game.

If EA had said, "We'd really rather Brutal Legend has a talking dog as the main character" that is something that Double Fine would have had to discuss, and either convince them was a bad idea, or put it in the game, otherwise risking loss of funding and loss of publisher. (Also thats a very extreme example, and again based on what I understand)

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Ah, I see. I didn't know that level of creative control could be exercised by the publisher. Other Double Fine games that have been produced traditionally feel so uncompromised to me (though now I'm wondering if the annoying and useless collectable stuff in Psychonauts is the kind of thing a publisher would insist on) that I never thought of it being a creative problem for them.

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With something like say, The Cave that's published by Sega or Brutal Legend which was published by EA, what kind of financial control do they not have? 

 

Jason Rohrer had to change the theme of his game from a divorced couple to the diamond trade because of the publisher. 

http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=118565

 

Besides, how is this taking advantage of a fanbase? No one is compelled to give them money.For me, there is a lot of value in knowing that you provided capital. 

I don't know which I'm more excited about, the game or the 2player production videos. 

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Taking advantage is maybe the wrong phrase (though I think it can be used without nefarious connotations), but it's definitely been a concern of mine. I think the discussion of what and who Kickstarter should and shouldn't be for is a valid one. Which is of course not to say that Double Fine should inherently fall on the "shouldn't" side of things because they're established (I stated above I think they are fine), but the transition for a well-known and respected (if not AAA) developer to operations based primarily on Kickstarter is an interesting one, and something I wanted to know more about.

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I'm still waiting for the Banner Saga to come out but this seems super cool so I'm backing.

 

I'm excited for the Banner Saga, which I backed... but not for this so uhmmmm. Hmm. Loved the video though.

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Taking advantage is maybe the wrong phrase (though I think it can be used without nefarious connotations), but it's definitely been a concern of mine. I think the discussion of what and who Kickstarter should and shouldn't be for is a valid one. Which is of course not to say that Double Fine should inherently fall on the "shouldn't" side of things because they're established (I stated above I think they are fine), but the transition for a well-known and respected (if not AAA) developer to operations based primarily on Kickstarter is an interesting one, and something I wanted to know more about.

 

This article has a tremendous analysis of Kickstarter 'ethics.' Best quote: "People who succeed on Kickstarter aren’t people with no contacts, no networks, no access, no nothing. They are people who have substantial amounts of social capital, looking to trade it for actual capital capital."

 

I'm not bothered in any way by the second DF Kickstarter, but I don't think Kickstarter is going to be a reliable funding model for them or any other medium-sized developer in the long-term. At some point that well of social capital is going to dry up and KS -- at least the model of KS that we currently have -- will no longer be a viable source of financial support.

 

(Also, thank you Mington for correcting the thread title)

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 I'm not bothered in any way by the second DF Kickstarter, but I don't think Kickstarter is going to be a reliable funding model for them or any other medium-sized developer in the long-term. At some point that well of social capital is going to dry up and KS -- at least the model of KS that we currently have -- will no longer be a viable source of financial support.

 

At this point in time, I agree with you.  Broken Age isn't out yet and I totally understand them wanting to have something else in the works.  Hopefully Broken Age and maybe even Massive Chalice will do well enough to allow them to move forward on other things without resorting to KS, but DF has to be careful.  Broken Age was basically sold on faith in Tim and DF, but they can't depend on that working in the future if the game turns out poorly.

 

As for Massive Chalice itself, I wasn't completely sold on the idea, but the pitch itself has swayed me somewhat.  I'll probably end up backing, but at a lower level than I did with Broken Age.

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I'm kind of over Kickstarter as a thing since it's become obvious they'll allow any project on there since they get a cut of it. That Susan Wilson thing with her 9 year old making a game from RPG maker, and this ridiculous second kickstarter by PA http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/pennyarcade/penny-arcades-podcast-downloadable-content-the-ret

I pledged to like 3 or 4 games in that initial excitement rush a few months ago and i'd kind of rather just wait for them to be delivered than give more money for new games. It's not like there's a dearth of indie titles available to buy and play right now, rather than buying and not getting for a year or whatever.

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This article has a tremendous analysis of Kickstarter 'ethics.' Best quote: "People who succeed on Kickstarter aren’t people with no contacts, no networks, no access, no nothing. They are people who have substantial amounts of social capital, looking to trade it for actual capital capital."

 

I'm not bothered in any way by the second DF Kickstarter, but I don't think Kickstarter is going to be a reliable funding model for them or any other medium-sized developer in the long-term. At some point that well of social capital is going to dry up and KS -- at least the model of KS that we currently have -- will no longer be a viable source of financial support.

 

(Also, thank you Mington for correcting the thread title)

 

The tradeoff is not social capital, but time and uncertainty. You are trading your money now for a game that hasn't been built yet quite a ways in the future; whereas buying a game that's already out is a tradeoff between a potentially higher price for something accessible immediately and with complete knowledge of the product already available.

 

Anyone suffering from "Kickstarter fatigue" (as I am a bit) is probably doing so because A. The mental realization of how long you have to wait for the game to actually appear is kicking in. B. the payoff for that wait hasn't come for just about anyone yet. If the payoff B > A the long wait and uncertainty, then Kickstarter will be around for a good while yet. If on the other hand the majority of people find that A < B (or even that they didn't like the game) then Kickstarter is finished. We'll just have to wait to find out.

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