Jake

Dota Today 1: QOP Top and POTM Bottom

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Here's my view on the LoL v DotA debate, from the distinct PoV of someone who really loves LoL(and thinks DotA is pretty neat):

 

  • Small mechanical differences annoy the hell out of me. In LoL, I feel like if I have two skillshots coming at me, slightly staggered, that I can dodge from one way to another incredibly fast.
  • The abundance of skillshots in general. When you see a skilled Lux, Ezreal, Orianna, etc- or just that single, brilliant Nidalee spear from max range, you can separate the men from the boys. There are even other kinds of 'skillshots' that aren't missile-based, but instead have more to do with positioning- similar to Windrunner, if you will. A good example being Riven- her Q lets her pass through targets while swinging, but you can also hover 'over' a target to hit them with it like a wall. Knowing how to actually curve through and around them so that you're positioned perfectly, or knock them back just slightly the way you want, can make or break the whole thing. Pixels win lanes with her, and many other champions.
  • Different resource systems on champions. Katarina for example, has none whatsoever but her cooldowns, which reset on a kill. Most characters use mana, but some prioritize it more than others- Ryze actually has damage scale off of it, Kassadin needs a huge pool to be able to get his ultimate stacked up enough, etc. With others, it's simply a limit to keep you from spamming spells all day. Even then, there's Energy(small pool that regens quickly), Rage(builds off of auto attacks), and some character-specific ones, such as Rengar's Ferocity or Rumble's Heat meter.
  • Real magic scaling. It's not necessarily better than DotA's, but I prefer it, especially considering 'carrying' as a spellcaster against a traditional Agi Carry can get pretty tough lategame in DotA.

 

On the other hand, there's a handful of things I really like about DotA:

  • A heavier emphasis on items with active abilities. League has several, and they're all incredibly powerful. But with DotA, there's seriously a ton of the things. I'd kill for a Force Staff in LoL, even if it couldn't jump walls like in DotA.
  • I just like the DotA art style a ton more. God damn, it's a beautiful game.
  • The surrounding infrastructure and client are just better built. That's sorta what happens when you have money even when you're first starting.
  • The innovative ideas that are in the Pennant system, bringing back HLTV(and even supplying an external client!), in-game team skinning, the in-game guide system- it's all pretty damn magical and forward-thinking.

 

Lastly, some differences that not many bring up, where my preferences shine through:

  • Map size and mobility differences. Mid/lategame, shit takes time in DotA. Just going from fountain to the center of the map takes foreeeeever. In League, it's ~35 seconds. 25 or so if you grab Homeguard boots. Furthermore, champions on the whole are way more mobile in League, in means of being able to hop over walls given proper situations, and in general mobility is just something that seems to be taken much more aggressively in League. Then again, the small size of the map and the high mobility means we'll never see someone like Spirit Breaker, who is just fucking incredible to play to any League player. The idea that he can do that on such a low cooldown is nuts.
  • Skins in League, for me at least, are just flat superior than DotA's option. Yeah, you're not able to earn them ingame, which sucks a bit- but when I wanted to spend money on DotA items, I found that I couldn't even recognize the difference between the default and the new item. Whereas you never have that issue in LoL, and especially on the more expensive skins. Something as simple as iBlitzcrank(~$8.75 USD, maybe less, been awhile since I did conversions) is a massive difference from his normal skin. Same with Redeemed Riven, Fisherman Fizz, Queen Ashe. Then you've got your legendary skins, which are practically a total cosmetic(including audio) change from the default. And that isn't even mentioning the crazy class, like Pulsefire Ezreal, which has multiple in-game tiers to the skin itself.
  • The speed of the games is pretty drastically different. Pro DotA can have some rather... long... pauses. Generally in League, pauses don't last that long- it's pretty rare for pauses in the action to exceed 5 minutes. Your average pro DotA game has at least one 5 minute pause in it, and it's fairly frequent to get more than 15 minutes of downright boring shit going on. However, this also keys into much more going on 'behind the scenes' with DotA- the posturing can make the whole game. And sometimes, that can be pretty interesting.
  • Item variety. In League, you've got a few different build paths for each character, but it's more about deciding between types of all-out damage, or how to itemize against the enemy team. With DotA, there's a lot more variety there. Now granted, most of it is going to be utterly worthless, even if you're playing a Mage support and you're looking purely at items for Mage supports. But then you get weird niche cases like your carry picking up a sheep stick because they can get legit usefulness from it.

 

 

WOO. THERE. WROTE IT ALL OUT.

 

The one thing I won't go into: Runes and Masteries. Masteries I'm fine with, no big deal there, and it can create some pretty wild differences that are pretty fun. So can runes. But rune pages being so prohibitively expensive is kinda nuts to me. Hell, I'd even rather they be free- I can't imagine doing that would diminish their income that much, as most of it I know comes from skins.

 

 

Edit: Oh, and I can't imagine something as fucking nuts-crazy-fast as this(the superfast double hop late in the clip) happening in DotA: 

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it's fairly frequent to get more than 15 minutes of downright boring shit going on

People who prefer League keep saying this.

 

Do you watch pro Dota?

 

It's just flat out not true.

 

Obviously you can find examples of it happening from time to time, but the exact same thing could be said about League.

 

Also this:

 

 

Small mechanical differences annoy the hell out of me. In LoL, I feel like if I have two skillshots coming at me, slightly staggered, that I can dodge from one way to another incredibly fast. 

 

Can and is easily frequently done in Dota, depending on the hero. Just like in League. The main difference here is there's fewer skillshots in Dota, but there are just as many dodge abilities, maybe more, 'cause you can actually actively dodge things that are TARGETED in some cases. That's a thing I don't recall happening too often in League. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong; it's been a while.

 

Ever watched a pro Sand King? Storm Spirit? Anyone who konws how to use Blink/Force Staff?

 

Or, fuck, Puck? PUCK. Puck is easily the most dodge-happy character in either game. It's what DEFINES Puck.

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People who prefer League keep saying this.

 

Do you watch pro Dota?

 

It's just flat out not true.

 

Obviously you can find examples of it happening from time to time, but the exact same thing could be said about League.

 

Also this:

 

 

 

Can and is easily frequently done in Dota, depending on the hero. Just like in League. The main differene here is there's fewer skillshots in Dota, but there are just as many dodge abilities.

 

Ever watched a pro Sand King? Storm Spirit? Anyone who konws how to use Blink/Force Staff?

 

Or, fuck, Puck? PUCK. Puck is easily the most dodge-happy character in either game. It's what DEFINES Puck.

 

I do actually watch a decent amount of pro DotA. A bit less than I do League, but eh. And the '15 minutes' I said isn't all at once- it's generally divided in spurts around the games. But it's still there, and there's a lot. It's more tolerable when you're really into what's going on, but that doesn't exactly make it forgiveable(or interesting).

 

 

And as to the dodges: For one, if you don't have as many skillshots, you're not gonna get it as often. Dodges like that Cait dodge are something that happens in nearly every pro game you watch nowadays.

 

 

However, I'd also say that you don't get dodges like that out of any of the cases you named except Puck and Storm Spirit. Yes, they can dodge abilities, but there's a difference between being able to simply keep moving in the direction you're in, or halfway close to perpendicular, and full 180 dodges. Turn speed matters. The same dodges in DotA would take nearly an extra half second minimum.

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Hey guys, not sure if you follow Dota Today on twitter  but we're having Double Fine's Brad Muir on tonight to talk Dota. Anything you want to know about him, Massive Chalice or his perspective on the game? He and I group up a lot and he's a hilarious addition to any Lords Management team. 

 

Headed to the studio in a couple hours but let me know!

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Is ogre magi the baby daddy of the double fine baby?

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And as to the dodges: For one, if you don't have as many skillshots, you're not gonna get it as often. Dodges like that Cait dodge are something that happens in nearly every pro game you watch nowadays.

 

However, I'd also say that you don't get dodges like that out of any of the cases you named except Puck and Storm Spirit. Yes, they can dodge abilities, but there's a difference between being able to simply keep moving in the direction you're in, or halfway close to perpendicular, and full 180 dodges. Turn speed matters. The same dodges in DotA would take nearly an extra half second minimum.

What. Dodges like that happen in every Dota game, too, barring the ones that lack the truly mobile characters. Just like League.

 

Turn speed matters (in a good way), but you're insane if you think Dota lacks sweet, sweet dodges because it has turn speed. Absolutely insane.

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Nick and I wanted to play LOL (as I never have) and then do a cast about it, but honestly, after peeking into these convos... I am afraid.

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Haha. League will feel completely different to you on day one. It's a shame you don't have infinite time, 'cause it's really hard to do a comparison without having played both extensively. I suppose as long as you're aware of that (and you probably are!), it should be good!

 

I'm in a position where I played League for a long time (about a year?), then went cold turkey once Dota 2 came out. I never got into the League competitive scene, despite trying extensively, 'cause I found it incredibly boring to watch. But then I immediately latched onto the Dota 2 competitive scene, 'cause it just seemed so much more exciting and interesting to watch. But who knows what the real reason was. I've since tried to watch more competitive League and still can't make myself finish a full game, but that's not really fair, since I don't play it anymoooooooooooore. Whatever. Where was I?

 

So, yeah...

 

It'd be fun to hear your thoughts, as someone who HASN'T played both extensively, though!

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So last week I was in Santa Barbra and couldn't play Dota at all and in the days since I've been back I haven't played either.  I've noticed I feel less compelled to play it.  I don't mean that as in I don't want to play it or if someone hit me up to play a game I wouldn't be down, but rather I normally feel such a strong pull to play the game every single night and as soon as I play my next game I'll be in it's clutches again.  Is this what it feels like to quit smoking?

 

Edit: For what it's worth I just wanted to add that in don't you can dodge (some) things that aren't skillshots by disjointing the projectiles.  Either by skills or using items like Manta at the right time.

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Every once in a while I take a couple weeks off of Dota and yeah that's pretty accurate. Then one night I'm like "hey it's time again" and I'm back in it up to my neck.

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Nick and I wanted to play LOL (as I never have) and then do a cast about it, but honestly, after peeking into these convos... I am afraid.

 

The biggest thing to take into LoL, is that if you get the feeling there's less depth to something, you're probably not seeing all the pieces. Both games have an incredible amount of depth, and for all the claims that the skill ceiling is lower in LoL, few who start to play it still think so for very long.

They're two really different experiences, that really just speak to different kinds of people. DotA is a bit slower overall of an experience, but carries a lot more strategy too- the size of the map really contributes to that in some incredible ways. Similarly, LoL seems to lose depth in that you're not punished nearly as hard for screwing up a combo or a spellcast, but it makes up for it where there are things like Skillshots or in the second to second teamfights, where you get punished a lot more for small amounts of CC than you do in DotA(as with DotA, most CCs last quite awhile, whereas most in LoL are pretty dang short).

They're both spectacular. They both suffer from God Awful communities. And one of them has the best character in any game ever <3.

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That's not timbersaw, the goblin-in-a-tree-murder-machine who is deathly afraid of trees!

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That's not timbersaw, the goblin-in-a-tree-murder-machine who is deathly afraid of trees!

 

Is Timbersaw's gameplay modeled off of Super Smash Brothers? I DIDN'T THINK SO. We gettin' fighting game gameplay in your LoMas

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Nick and I wanted to play LOL (as I never have) and then do a cast about it, but honestly, after peeking into these convos... I am afraid.

There is nothing more terrifying than debating about similar games

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Is Timbersaw's gameplay modeled off of Super Smash Brothers? I DIDN'T THINK SO. We gettin' fighting game gameplay in your LoMas

I don't know what this means but I do know Timbersaw is the most fun of all the characters in all the video games. Undeniable fact.

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I don't know what this means but I do know Timbersaw is the most fun of all the characters in all the video games. Undeniable fact.

Sir, you are mistaken. Don't get me wrong, Timbersaw is pretty cool, but he's no Bristleback, and he's no Rubik.

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If you want to know how important it will be for DOTA 2 to crack the Korean competitive scene, check out this:

Valve is already making TV commercials for DOTA 2 in Korea.

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Rubick is hilarious fun. My personal favorite moment of mine was stealing lifestealers ult, hiding in nyx with it and ganking with him

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Nick and I wanted to play LOL (as I never have) and then do a cast about it, but honestly, after peeking into these convos... I am afraid.

 

I really don't think there's anything to be afraid of (unless you are afraid that your Dota wife will suddenly have to compete with a LoL mistress  :eyebrow:  ). There's truly nothing to be contentious about between the games. They're both well made, popular, fantastic games. One of them is better in some ways, one of them is better in others, and if you play more of one than the other when you swap you'll feel what's different.

 

I imagine conversations between lomas must seem like what it's like to have a conversation between a fan and someone that doesn't play one. If you wanted a LoL Posse to play the game I'd more than happily volunteer, but of course no idea what your plans are with Nick having played before.

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I really don't think there's anything to be afraid of (unless you are afraid that your Dota wife will suddenly have to compete with a LoL mistress  :eyebrow:  ). There's truly nothing to be contentious about between the games. They're both well made, popular, fantastic games. One of them is better in some ways, one of them is better in others, and if you play more of one than the other when you swap you'll feel what's different.

I don't blame them. I wouldn't do it. Well at least I wouldn't do it and talk about it on the podcast. It's like the console wars, maybe worse. I mentioned that I slightly preferred one game over the other and explained why and the first two replies called me an asshole. And this is a good forum.

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Sir, you are mistaken. Don't get me wrong, Timbersaw is pretty cool, but he's no Bristleback, and he's no Rubik.

Bristleback?! Are you kidding me.

 

Rubick MAYBE.

 

But nah.

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I don't blame them. I wouldn't do it. Well at least I wouldn't do it and talk about it on the podcast. It's like the console wars, maybe worse. I mentioned that I slightly preferred one game over the other and explained why and the first two replies called me an asshole. And this is a good forum.

Um.

 

I didn't call you an asshole. Please go read my post again.

 

But, well, since I guess I already pissed you off somehow, I'll just go a bit further: you are ignorant. You were saying things about Dota that are just plain not true. Lots of people who prefer League tend to do this. And, of course, the same goes the other way, which is why I try to avoid speaking authoritatively on League, and only speak from my own personal experiences. You and others here continue to say things about Dota that aren't true, and it's baffling. If you don't know, then why do you keep talking about it? It's baffling.

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