Jake

Dota Today 1: QOP Top and POTM Bottom

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You can obviously play them differently just with items, but a mastery page with mostly offense vs a mastery page with mostly defense can end up making a large difference in how the game goes early, and have an effect on late game teamfights.

The major problem I have with this is it means you're largely stuck in a rut of "well I chose my defensive masteries and runes... GUESS I GOTTA PLAY ACCORDINGLY". Obviously, you still have some choice beyond there, but it's dumb to make this a meta, pre-game choice.

 

When you're only depending on your item choice, you end up with much more versatile, much more dynamic games where a team decides that this or that just isn't going to work, so they've gotta switch strats or whatever. 

 

Eurgh, eurgh I hate that dumb shit in League. Even when I played it all the goddamn time I thought it was the stupidest fucking thing.

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More importantly, re: League vs. Dota.

 

NYWMU.jpg

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The major problem I have with this is it means you're largely stuck in a rut of "well I chose my defensive masteries and runes... GUESS I GOTTA PLAY ACCORDINGLY". Obviously, you still have some choice beyond there, but it's dumb to make this a meta, pre-game choice.

 

When you're only depending on your item choice, you end up with much more versatile, much more dynamic games where a team decides that this or that just isn't going to work, so they've gotta switch strats or whatever. 

 

Eurgh, eurgh I hate that dumb shit in League. Even when I played it all the goddamn time I thought it was the stupidest fucking thing.

 

Nothing about rune or masteries limits your item choices, though? You're LESS versatile, because you have no choice but to do everything in itemization. It's just the opportunity to point a champion in one direction or another depending on what your team needs ahead of time. You could get a head start on being a tanky, cc peeling machine, or because you know you're going all out offensive items you could a) go completely glass cannon runes and masteries and just do it or B) pick defensively because you know you're not going to get help from items.

 

I know you don't like it, but I enjoy the extra pre-game strategizing opportunity it gives. It's another layer during picks and bans.

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I think me and Twig are probably also comparing things with dota, where the items tend to be very different from each other.

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Yeah, League items are so much less versatile as a whole.

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I tried LoL before I tried Dota 2, and all that outside the game stuff turned me off hard. Then I played Dota 2 and it was like, "Oh I just pick a hero without getting my mind destroyed by tactical possiblities before I even know what I'm doing. I can do that." Having all the heroes available helped a lot too.

 

That's pretty much all I have to say on the topic though. It always seems so weird when I see people delve into the differences of  these games. I'll hear stuff about Dota that is just flat out incorrect, so I imagine the same thing is happening on the other side. Real talk: you only have so much time to play these games, and you're gonna like one more than the others just out of preferences. I remember when PC gamer, I think, did a pretty uninformed comparison. They said stuff like denying is stupid. For me it's a nuance of the game that means that you can exercise more skill to get more out of your lane, while requiring you to still pay attention to position and map awareness. I will totally buy the argument that it's just another way to lose a lane that isn't harassment/kill based, so it's less interesting. But honestly I think most people make up their choice to play on the character selection and the art style.

 

I guess it's just hard for me to separate the more objective game design arguments from the personal investment and personal style preferences.

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In my case, and I think twig too, we both played LoL a bunch before dota. I played LoL for a couple years, still play when friends bug me about it. A large part of it for me is general boredom with LoL, where in dota I feel like I'm still learning stuff. Obviously I've argued for design choices in dota over LoL as well. LoL got me into these games, I don't hate it or anything, just like dota a lot more.

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In my case, and I think twig too, we both played LoL a bunch before dota. I played LoL for a couple years, still play when friends bug me about it. A large part of it for me is general boredom with LoL, where in dota I feel like I'm still learning stuff. Obviously I've argued for design choices in dota over LoL as well. LoL got me into these games, I don't hate it or anything, just like dota a lot more.

Yep, this sums me up just about perfectly!

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Am I alone in my years of WC3 Dota? I've been playing since before most of the heroes in the game were in the game B)

 

The funny thing is that I wasn't a Dota player, I was a WC3 player. I would always resent Dota because it was the only thing anybody would ever play on custom, and I couldn't play Wintermaul or chaos kingdom or some shit.

 

I eventually gave in and played it, but I was never particularly good at dota until HoN came out.

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Am I alone in my years of WC3 Dota? I've been playing since before most of the heroes in the game were in the game B)

When wc3 came out I didn't have a proper pc to play it, played the campaign on a friend's computer but really never got to do any multiplayer. Knew it existed by name but had no idea what it was until I played LoL.

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I played a lot of WC3 DotA, but it was pretty different back then, especially since apem was a probably the most popular mode. I never thought there was a shortage of people playing other customs though like mauls and hero arena type stuff.

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I spent the entirety of my WC3 "career" matchmaking with friends in a cyber cafe and getting reamed over and over by better players.

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Yeah, League items are so much less versatile as a whole.

 

I am only somewhat familiar with DOTA items, but this is a very fair point.

 

A common complaint for LoL is that everyone wishes the items did more STUFF rather than a large majority of them being different combinations of stat sticks.

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For DotA in War3 people would put "noobs only" or "pros only" in the title of games but usually decent people would join noob games to just roll unskilled players and pro games usually meant whoever gave up first blood got vote kicked. I kind of miss those days (no I don't).

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For DotA in War3 people would put "noobs only" or "pros only" in the title of games but usually decent people would join noob games to just roll unskilled players and pro games usually meant whoever gave up first blood got vote kicked. I kind of miss those days (no I don't).

 

The greatest thing Valve has ever done is free Dota players from iCCup and Garena.

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Ok, I'm going to say something that will probably make some people mad but hear me out. I think League is a more casual game than dota.

 

WAIT COME BACK

 

I know the word "casual" is pretty stigmatized, but I'm not using it to dismiss League in any way. What I mean is, in League, characters generally have higher mana regen, and spells tend to cost less and have shorter cooldowns, whereas in dota a single spell tends to have a bigger impact on the game. This means that in League you can generally throw spells around willynilly and have a good time, and it's reasonably effective. In dota, you can't do that without running out of mana, so you have to be more selective about when you cast them, but when players start casting a bunch, you know something big is happening.

 

I don't really understand why Riot is pumping so much money into esports, and seemingly so little into alternate game modes like dominion. Competitive League, at least as far as I am aware, is more about capitalizing on small advantages that it is about making big plays, and while that is certainly challenging, I don't find it especially interesting to watch. whereas dominion plays well into what I feel are the strengths of the game. I'd go into more detail but I think this post has little enough to do with this podcast episode already.

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Ok, I'm going to say something that will probably make some people mad but hear me out. I think League is a more casual game than dota.

 

WAIT COME BACK

 

I know the word "casual" is pretty stigmatized, but I'm not using it to dismiss League in any way. What I mean is, in League, characters generally have higher mana regen, and spells tend to cost less and have shorter cooldowns, whereas in dota a single spell tends to have a bigger impact on the game. This means that in League you can generally throw spells around willynilly and have a good time, and it's reasonably effective. In dota, you can't do that without running out of mana, so you have to be more selective about when you cast them, but when players start casting a bunch, you know something big is happening.

 

I don't really understand why Riot is pumping so much money into esports, and seemingly so little into alternate game modes like dominion. Competitive League, at least as far as I am aware, is more about capitalizing on small advantages that it is about making big plays, and while that is certainly challenging, I don't find it especially interesting to watch. whereas dominion plays well into what I feel are the strengths of the game. I'd go into more detail but I think this post has little enough to do with this podcast episode already.

 

It might seem a little insulting, but I think that even though League is the most "casual", League players still believe they are playing a game focused on skill, challenge and competition.

 

Which is completely true, of course. It's just my answer for why Dominion isn't particularly popular, and why watching pro games is still compelling. 

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I'd probably still play League if they made more fun modes like Dominion.

 

I think Dominion is superior to the standard game mode. I feel this very strongly.

 

I also hope Valve continues experimenting with alternate gaem modes like Diretide and Frostivus. Diretide was pretty fun. Frostivus is garbage, but that's okay. failures are OKAY. I want an official, permanent version of Diretide, with a map built for it.

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One thing thats really standout about dota compared to almost any other game is Icefrogs balance ideals. Whereas other games almost universally balance by using small, incremental number tweaks The Frog balances laterally, throwing more crazy shit in. Its really refreshing, and reminds me of an older school (ie. games like Diablo2 or Broodwar) where things were 'balanced' by the devs by letting systems of sufficient complexity balance themselves.

 

One of my favorite balance changes was a while back to Shadowfiend. He's wasn't terrible by any stretch, but definitely not in the top tier. How could we buff him a bit, Icefrog?

   -Shadowfiend now explodes on death

 

I love this style of design.  I'm surprised they can keep it up in such a competitive game.  Thinking about it, I suppose the pick counter-pick structure of the pro level games is a good safety net that lets them experiment more.

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i'm sure that helps, but league follows the same format & glancing at some of the patch notes it doesn't look remotely comparable.

 

really I think it just comes back to Icefrog. As a designer, he has got to be almost singular. Moving from a member of the beta team to 

 

m4BTCq8.png

 

in 2005 and turning a haphazard, unbalanced, terribly optimized mod into one of the most popular gamesgenres of all time. Years spent - for no profit - putting out new content and, even as it rose to absurd popularity, constantly making sweeping balance changes and alterations to core mechanics. And to this day his real identity is unknown, which almost like a campy movie ending

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