Super Metroid Appreciation Station

[Griddlelol]

Took me around 10 hours on my first try, and as my first metroidvania. If you have already played a metroid, you'll probably be faster.

[juffowup]

So, I asked for your opinions and then promptly ignored most of them and went for Zero Mission first. I've just finished the 'Metroid' bit and have started the suitless stealthy bit. I have to say that I understand for the first time why everyone bangs on about Metroid! It's spectacularly well designed and satisfying to explore and upgrade. I'd be interested to play through he original now and see exactly what changed for Zero Mission.

 

It's a really difficult thing to convey if you're not already steeped in the series, but the raddest thing about Zero Mission isn't really clear from playing the game.  If you check out a map of the original Metroid 1, hopefully one that has all the items listed on it, you'll find that virtually all the rooms from metroid 1 are still there in Zero Mission, and in the same places.  The Zero Mission maps are bigger, with detours, but they're basically all added on...

Remember after Ridley when on your way out there was the speed booster thing that shot you as a ball up through a bunch of ceilings into a room where you found the screw attack?  The reason your reward from Ridley came so late and in such a weird way is that that's where the screw attack was in Metroid 1; somehow it still felt natural in MZM though.

[Griddlelol]

Castlavania SotN doesn't hold up as well as super metroid. That weird motion blur is so incredibly off putting.

[Trip Hazard]

No, it doesn't, and it's too easy. I still love it though. Admittedly, the weird motion blur never really bothered me?

 

How far in are you?

[Sno]

Castlavania SotN doesn't hold up as well as super metroid.

 

No, it definitely doesn't. I would argue that many of the GBA and DS games that followed in its wake have better worlds and better mechanical foundations. SotN has a real shotgun approach to its design, there's a lot of stuff in there that kind of doesn't fit and feels weird and maybe broken. It's certainly an impressive and memorable game though, but it's perhaps best looked at as a thing of its time, something that looked at Metroid as a way to reinvigorate a stagnant franchise, and ambitiously tried to be everything its inspiration was and more.

 

That said, i think most fans would say that the Sorrow duology are the actual best Igarashi games. Dawn of Sorrow especially, despite suffering from some gimmick obligation as an early DS game while also sporting a seriously unfortunate bland anime aesthetic for its character portraits, has probably the largest and most interestingly designed world in an Igarashi Castlevania, as well as some really great and engaging systems. (Iga has spoken about probably looking to the Sorrow games as a foundation for the mechanics in Bloodstained.)

 

Portrait of Ruin is also pretty great, it tries some pretty weird and crazy things with its mechanics, but suffers from the same bland anime art as Dawn and also some fairly bland environments. The scope of the game may have been a little overly ambitious, it's very large and maybe stretched a bit thin. Order of Ecclesia, on the other hand, is a beautiful and laser-focused late-cycle DS game with maybe the most refined action in the entire 2d series, but it's jarringly difficult for those used to only the metroidvanias in the series and also has a fairly simple and straightforward world layout as it's sort of trying to bridge "classicvania" and "metroidvania".

 

The GBA games, Aria of Sorrow aside, are generally thought of as less accomplished than the DS games. (Igarashi claims to have not even been involved with Circle of the Moon, though it's actually generally better liked than the first GBA game he definitely was involved with, Harmony of Dissonance.)

 

While all the GBA games are available on Wii U Virtual Console, none of the DS games are, and who knows if they'll show up given how Konami has been lately. (Which honestly really sucks, Dawn of Sorrow is the one i want to recommend.)

 

Also, keep in mind that Iga's games also have a long tradition of bonus worlds and unlockable scenarios with entirely different mechanics, they're rarely over when they initially seem to be over.

[Griddlelol]

Cool, I was expecting replies saying I'm wrong, and that I need to keep trying. I think the 3D into and start screen set the tone for the game for me. It's super cheesy. I might just have an issue with the setting. Vampires, gothic, hardcore...it all feels as cheesy as the terrible 3D rendered bones.

 

The awful, awful soundtrack just make it worse. The music in Super Metroid is so incredibly evocative. It feels like fear and isolation, but with the occasional heroic theme injected in some areas. It makes you play cautiously, there's going to be something scary soon, so go slowly! It makes you feel like a badass for being the lone mercenary going through a scary unknown planet. It fits with the exploration you're doing and makes every discovery feel amazing.

SotN is not evocative of anything other than 80's hair metal bands. It's too fast and makes me want to plough through the level in speed run times even though it's my first ever experience with it. It actively discourages exploration by making me want to play fast. That's wrong!

 

The UI is weak. Your health seems hidden and playing it on a Vita (maybe an issue for me rather than the original game) means the number is so tiny I don't even notice it. Compared to Metroid where it has a bar based health system, not just a number. It makes it so much more clear how cautious you should be.

 

I honestly don't have anything good to say, I've played for about an hour, but everything about the game seems so freaking cheesy. I'm sure it was great in the day, but I'm not enjoying it. I really hate being so negative about a game, especially one so beloved (that part makes me feel wrong), but I'm struggling to find any redeeming qualities in it. 

 

Maybe I'll try out one of the GBA games. I looked for Dawn of Sorrow on ebay and it's in the order of £20, which seems ridiculous for a DS game. 

[Trip Hazard]

If you can't even get on with the music, it's not for you!

(it's probably in my top 5 VG soundtracks ever)

[dartmonkey]

SotN=

 

I bought it the other day in the sale. I had planned to play it after I've finished Aria of Sorrow (I'm about 5 hours in, and enjoying it), but after hearing your thoughts I might take a -vania break. Or maybe do Super Castlevania first. How does that compare?

[eot]

That's a shame, I've been looking forward to playing SotN one day.

[Griddlelol]

I wouldn't take my opinion as gospel. I'm probably biased because I think the theme is shitty. I really don't think it's a game for me though. I'll probably push through for maybe another hour but if I'm still not excited for it I'll drop it. 

[SecretAsianMan]

I want to tell you to keep going because the second half of the game is arguably what it's really known for, but that won't fix any of the issues you seem to be having.

 

Keep in mind that I haven't actually played the game myself.  The closest I've come is watching several speedruns.

[Sno]

I think SOTN has a really terrific OST, so the notion that the music in that game is terrible is not something i can really abide by. The music in the entire series is generally very upbeat and anachronistic to its theming, but SOTN is kind of the least that of any Castlevania game, much of the music in its soundtrack is very ambient and eerie.

 

The UI is terrible though, it absolutely is. Nothing is presented in the way you'd naturally expect it to be. It's clinging to Castlevania's confusing "hearts = ammo" metaphor as every Castlevania game does, but SOTN does it in a way that seems to rotate everything's visual presentation off by just enough to be incredibly off-putting. It's super weird and none of the other "igavanias" have this problem.

 

Also, no, Castlevania was always super cheesy. It's a garish hodge-podge of myths and legends that alternates between pretty-boy protagonists and hulking schwarzenegger-esque heroes, and it's always set to some manner of rock and roll-infused soundtrack. It also takes itself seriously and has an elaborate and labyrinthine continuity. (Well, not entirely seriously, there's a wee bit of wink and nod going on.) It's kind of great. (It's great!)

 

I bought it the other day in the sale. I had planned to play it after I've finished Aria of Sorrow (I'm about 5 hours in, and enjoying it), but after hearing your thoughts I might take a -vania break. Or maybe do Super Castlevania first. How does that compare?

 

SOTN is worth trying, at least. I still think it's a really great game, but i definitely wouldn't put it in the same league as Super Metroid, and i don't think it's as great as the Sorrow games either. It's something of a flawed gem.

Super Castlevania is part of the earlier half of the Castlevania series that fans generally refer to as "classicvania", they're mostly linear action games. Super Castlevania is generally fairly well regarded, fun and technically impressive, though it's often derisively cited as the easiest of the original games. (When it comes to people identifying the best "classicvania", i see people usually identify either the original Castlevania or Rondo of Blood, which Symphony of the Night is actually a direct sequel to, despite the totally different genre.)

 

I wouldn't take my opinion as gospel. I'm probably biased because I think the theme is shitty. I really don't think it's a game for me though. I'll probably push through for maybe another hour but if I'm still not excited for it I'll drop it. 

 

I'd really encourage probably giving Aria of Sorrow a shot, and if that doesn't click, Castlevania is maybe not for you. (Which i'm frankly surprised by, since you cited Rogue Legacy as a thing you really enjoyed.)

 

Protip: Abuse the back step and the landing animation from a jump to cancel out of recovery animations on attacks for faster attacks! I don't remember if that works in SotN, it probably does, and i know it works in the Sorrow games.

[miffy495]

All of the GBA ones are on the Wii U's virtual console, if you're looking for a way to play the best of them. Aria of sorrow is really good, as is Harmony of Dissonance if I recall correctly.

[tberton]

I quite enjoyed SotN when I played it a few years ago, having only had experience with the DS Castlevanias before that.

[Sno]

I certainly didn't mean to put forward the notion that SotN is a bad game, but i can understand why it wouldn't click with somebody. It's a massive and ambitious thing that doesn't always feel cohesive or sensible.

[Badfinger]

All of the GBA ones are on the Wii U's virtual console, if you're looking for a way to play the best of them. Aria of sorrow is really good, as is Harmony of Dissonance if I recall correctly.

 

I never played SOTN, but I played the hell out of Harmony of Dissonance, and I played Aria of Sorrow as well. Can't say much about Circle of the Moon, as I don't remember that if I played it at all. Those two are very good games.

[dartmonkey]

It's weird seeing YouTube videos of Aria - it looks nothing like the game I'm playing! I remember hearing someone, possibly Jeremy Parish saying they'd blow out the colour saturation to compensate for the dim screens on the GBAs. I'm playing a game of muted browns and midnight blues where the VC version looks like a Christmas tree. Great game though. I'm liking it more the further I get.

[Trip Hazard]

Also, no, Castlevania was always super cheesy. It's a garish hodge-podge of myths and legends that alternates between pretty-boy protagonists and hulking schwarzenegger-esque heroes, and it's always set to some manner of rock and roll-infused soundtrack. It also takes itself seriously and has an elaborate and labyrinthine continuity. (Well, not entirely seriously, there's a wee bit of wink and nod going on.) It's kind of great. (It's great!)

Super Castlevania is part of the earlier half of the Castlevania series that fans generally refer to as "classicvania", they're mostly linear action games. Super Castlevania is generally fairly well regarded, fun and technically impressive, though it's often derisively cited as the easiest of the original games. (When it comes to people identifying the best "classicvania", i see people usually identify either the original Castlevania or Rondo of Blood, which Symphony of the Night is actually a direct sequel to, despite the totally different genre.)

 

I'd really encourage probably giving Aria of Sorrow a shot, and if that doesn't click, Castlevania is maybe not for you. (Which i'm frankly surprised by, since you cited Rogue Legacy as a thing you really enjoyed.)

 

Aye, there's that quite famous image of a hyper-muscled, scantily clad Simon Belmont brandishing his whip at the gates of Dracula's castle, as his painted face looms in a very garishly coloured sky. That really sets the tone for the whole series, I've always thought.

 

I like SCIV a lot, and it's worth playing even if you don't like any of the sprawling, metroidvania titles. It's a laser-focused game, not an ounce of fat, and it also has a kicking soundtrack.

 

Sno, I thought you said a while back that you thought Rogue Legacy only bore a superficial resemblance to Castlevania? If you did, I agree with you. The movement in Rogue Legacy doesn't feel like anything from any 'Vania I've ever played, and the (uninspired) appearance of the different zones seems derivative of any number of other games, not any location specific to Castlevania.

[Sno]

This whole Castlevania conversation motivated me to dig up my copies of the DS games, and after messing around on old save files for a bit to refresh my memory on various details for the purposes of these conversations, i decided that i really actually needed to go and finally finish playing Order of Ecclesia. It was something i somehow had never really gotten around to doing before, and i still haven't done it quite yet either, because i started a new save and i'm probably less than half way through right now. I think Order of Ecclesia is a really terrific thing though, i'll probably stick some thoughts about it in this thread whenever i get done with it. One of the things that instantly stands out to me, though, is just how great it looks. I think it's one of the best-looking games on the original DS. (I love that early area where you're jumping across floating debris in an area where the water level constantly raises and lowers, while a polygonal scene in the background depicts a huge ship being tossed about in an intense storm.)

 

I like SCIV a lot, and it's worth playing even if you don't like any of the sprawling, metroidvania titles. It's a laser-focused game, not an ounce of fat, and it also has a kicking soundtrack.

 

People generally argue that the multi-directional whip sort of breaks Castlevania's old-school platforming action dynamics, and i'm inclined to agree, but it's still certainly a top-notch production. Man, and that soundtrack? Really hard to believe that the SNES sound chip produced

.

 

Speaking of Order of Ecclesia, that has a

.

 

I feel like maybe i should put together a few Castlevania posts in the music thread.

 

Sno, I thought you said a while back that you thought Rogue Legacy only bore a superficial resemblance to Castlevania? If you did, I agree with you. The movement in Rogue Legacy doesn't feel like anything from any 'Vania I've ever played, and the (uninspired) appearance of the different zones seems derivative of any number of other games, not any location specific to Castlevania.

 

I don't know if that's specifically a thing i said, but i don't like Rogue Legacy and i can probably buy into those sentiments. It's a game that clearly wants so much to be Castlevania, but can't quite square those ambitions with the nuance of its execution, it's very at odds with itself. It's kludgy and badly designed, and throughout it all, it faces you with locations and enemies that could not possibly have any less character than they already do. I could not believe the game was so glowingly received on Steam, i felt like i was crazy. Sensible, reasonable people like Rogue Legacy, i don't understand it. To each their own, i suppose.

 

I thought it had good music though! So there's that.

[BobbyBesar]

I like most of the Castlevanias, and I liked Rogue Legacy, but I agree that they have very little to do with one another.

 

The movement in Rogue Legacy felt almost too fluid, there wasn't a sense of heft or weight that the 2D Castlevanias tended to feature. I also think there was something missing from the sword animation itself. A lot of the fun for me in the later 2D Castlevanias came out of playing with the various different weapon mechanics and seeing if there was a way to break specific enemies by using them. By limiting to just a single sword and a very limited set of sub-weapons per run, it felt like there wasn't much room for that kind of experimentation.

 

It felt like I approached every enemy in Rogue Legacy the same way, and it became a question of endurance to avoid getting hit more than actually hitting new types of challenges. Co-incident with that being the primacy with which the castle was presented suggested to the player that grinding to improve the castle was the best progression. What other progression was available (fairy chests) felt unsatisfyingly limited (incremental improvement doled out too slowly).

[Griddlelol]

I like most of the Castlevanias, and I liked Rogue Legacy, but I agree that they have very little to do with one another.

 

The movement in Rogue Legacy felt almost too fluid, there wasn't a sense of heft or weight that the 2D Castlevanias tended to feature. 

 

It felt like I approached every enemy in Rogue Legacy the same way, and it became a question of endurance to avoid getting hit more than actually hitting new types of challenges.

 

Co-incident with that being the primacy with which the castle was presented suggested to the player that grinding to improve the castle was the best progression. What other progression was available (fairy chests) felt unsatisfyingly limited (incremental improvement doled out too slowly).

 

Other than the setting, and some clear inspiration in art design, I don't see much else in common between the two either.

 

The fluidity is what I loved about Rogue Legacy. Constantly changing directions while jumping, dashing, double, triple, quadruple jumping to avoid danger. It makes me feel like a god. I loved that the onus is on the player to increase in skill by getting good a dodging shit. 

 

Your last point I can understand, but that sort of incremental progression is like crack to me. I find it incredibly satisfying to know I got one more upgrade, or just enough money to buy the weapon or armor upgrade. The money meta-game is really awesome.

 

I played more SotN last night and got to a boss. It looked cool, I died, and realised I must have forgotten to save near by so I'm back at the first save point. I might be able to appreciate SotN from the perspective of an outsider, but I don't think I'll love it. Just understand why people like it.

[Sno]

Okay, so i guess i'm not buying into the notion that Rogue Legacy is a thing that was trying to be wholly different from Castlevania, then.

 

The similarity in attack arcs with the larger claymore weapons in the metroidvania Castlevanias is clearly evident to me, the side dashes are evocative of the back dash mechanic, the use of a sub weapon mechanic and even the kinds of sub weapons presented in the game are also a clear allusion to Castlevania. The pogo hop is even functionally identical to the dive kick in Iga's games! I can't see it as anything else than a game that wants to be a Castlevania roguelike, and i think it does it badly. I had huge problems with how it generates its levels and expects you to engage with them, it presents some fundamentally broken questions, rooms that tease rewards beyond challenges that have no reasonable answer. I also thought its bosses were simplistic damage sponges, but more generally there's that unpredictable knockback that makes it difficult to set up successive attacks, ambiguous and ill-defined hitboxes, and a lack of greater combat nuance like what is present in those later Castlevanias. (Rogue Legacy doesn't give you any animation cancels to play around with, for example.)

 

Options for advanced mobility are absolutely a thing that's present in the metroidvania Castlevanias, double jumps and back dashes and slide kicks and dive kicks and super jump uppercuts and all sorts of weird mobility options in combat. It's heavier in its feel, for sure, and that's probably down to personal preference, admittedly. For my own part, I hated the loose feeling of Rogue Legacy's jumping mechanics.

 

It felt like I approached every enemy in Rogue Legacy the same way, and it became a question of endurance to avoid getting hit more than actually hitting new types of challenges. Co-incident with that being the primacy with which the castle was presented suggested to the player that grinding to improve the castle was the best progression. What other progression was available (fairy chests) felt unsatisfyingly limited (incremental improvement doled out too slowly).

 

That's where Rogue Legacy finally broke for me and i decided that i kind of hated it. The way the game is structured does not reward skillful play, it rewards a grind.

God dammit, i hate being so negative, i was trying to avoid taking another dump on Rogue Legacy.

Griddlelol, bums me out to see that you've had a bad experience with SotN, i'd like to encourage sticking with it a bit more since it sounds like you're still really early into it, but i'm not sure that's going to change your mind based on what you've been saying.

[Griddlelol]

I'm going to stick with it, I really want to like it. After falling in love with pretty much every other Metroidvania I've played (which is so far 3 2D Metroids, Prime, Shantae and the Pirate's Curse and a few more I can't remember right now), I can't believe that something so well regarded is so hard for me to enjoy. 

 

I could have just been cranky each time I've picked it up to play. Sadly mood makes a huge difference on whether my first impression is good or bad. I should probably take a nap before I try again.

[Sno]

Has La Mulana come up in this thread?

Since this is generally now "the thread where Metroidvania games are discussed" i'm going to throw out a recommendation for that game, but... That's a game where people sort of need to know what they're getting into, it has a real sadistic streak. Lots of really cruel traps and difficult fights, but it also has maybe a few easily missed things and a bunch of fairly obtuse and complicated actual puzzles to solve. I mean, and the answers are there in the game, the clues are all over the place, but the game never tells you to look for them. It's that kind of game, it does not hold your hand at all and you can pretty thoroughly screw up a playthrough, but everything you need is in there somewhere.

 

It all seemed very intentioned, it's a very well constructed and enjoyably devious game, but it's perhaps appealing for a narrower audience than basically every other game that has been noted in this thread.

 

Available on Steam!

[SecretAsianMan]

Okay, so i guess i'm not buying into the notion that Rogue Legacy is a thing that was trying to be wholly different from Castlevania, then.

 

The similarity in attack arcs with the larger claymore weapons in the metroidvania Castlevanias is clearly evident to me, the side dashes are evocative of the back dash mechanic, the use of a sub weapon mechanic and even the kinds of sub weapons presented in the game are also a clear allusion to Castlevania. The pogo hop is even functionally identical to the dive kick in Iga's games! I can't see it as anything else than a game that wants to be a Castlevania roguelike, and i think it does it badly.

 

I think Rogue Legacy imitates Castlevania in that it imitates other games that imitate Castlevania.  Yes, those mechanics are present in Castlevania, but they're also sort of standard fare these days so I don't know that saying it wants to be Castlevania is entirely fair.

 

I also disagree that it doesn't reward skillful play.  It's entirely possible to do well and beat the game with very few levels and abilities.  It takes good knowledge of how rooms are generated, enemy behavior, classes and traits, and movement abilities.  It's admittedly designed more towards progression via grinding but there's still room for skillful play.