Dragon's Crown: Gaze past the giant witch tits

[tegan]

I hear it's basically sidescrolling Gauntlet, but I don't know how accurate that statement is.

[youmeyou]

Twig, I think we've had a wide range of interesting discussion in this thread. I don't equate it to 'harping.' Why you tryin' to silence opinions, yo?

 

The first page talks primarily about gameplay, actually. This game hasn't come out yet and there isn't a huge amount of information as to its mechanics. There is a whole lot of visual... information, so that's just what's easier to discuss right now.

 

I think the fact that threads on these subjects tend to run on illuminates how little agreement there is on this forum in respect to gender issues. Which is a good thing I think. It'd be quite dull otherwise. Anyway, I've had way more respectful and insightful discussions here than in other places I've brought up similar topics. So: more of this sort of thing, I say.

[Twig]

Most of the content of the sexism discussion would literally fit into any other thread where someone mentions titillation of female characters. It's harping 'cause it's the same discussion that always happens, with slightly different dressing, and because COMPLETELY dominates a thread until people get sick of talking about it. It happens. Sorry. It does. We have threads for this kind of discussion already, too.

I'm not sure if you're joking about me trying to "silence opinions". If you are, what the fuck?

Also there's definitely more agreement than disagreement. There just tends to be one side that cares way more than the other side. Not even "cares", really. Just "doesn't feel as strongly in this particular instance". Every one of these discussions seems to boil down to that. I guess if you find that interesting.

[youmeyou]

I do, and I'm glad this forum fosters it. I'm sorry you don't but I'm not going to stop talking about it. So please stop trying to silence my opinion by calling what me and others are posting 'harping.' That is a pejorative term. That, and everything you just wrote is basically asking me to shut up about it. How exactly is that not an attempt to silence? There are plenty of threads on this forum that I find uninteresting, I do not feel the need to comment about how uninteresting they are.

 

Like I said, there was gaming discussion on the first page. You did not contribute to it. You responded to the sexism stuff. Direct the conversation to the gaming if you want to talk about that instead. Reacting solely to posts discussing sexism only serves to center the discussion around that.

[Twig]

Damn right it's a pejorative term. And it'll continue to be! It is frustrating when a thread goes in this direction, because I know it's an important thing to acknowledge, absolutely, but when it happens again and again among the same crowd of people, it's just travelling the beaten path.

 

But I never asked you to shut up, and never implied you should. Sorry you're reading that in my post. You're dead wrong. The core of my complaint is that this topic "COMPLETELY dominates a thread until people get sick of talking about it". As for my responding to the sexism stuff, and not participating in the gameplay discussion... well, that's where the thread was when I found it? Then, it continued to go in that direction. And, yeah, I thought it might turn out to be an interesting discussion, so I didn't fight it. Then it turned into the same damn discussion as every other thread it happens in.

 

But now I'm at the point where I'm defending my opinion far beyond the scope of my emotional or practical concern AND far beyond the scope of my original point just because it's my opinion. And that's a fucking waste of everyone's time, especially yours. So I'm sorry for that.

 

 

I hear it's basically sidescrolling Gauntlet, but I don't know how accurate that statement is.

Gauntlet is one of the best video games! But... only in multiplayer. Most of the fun there lies in exploring the levels and finding all the secrets together with dudes!

 

The videos make it look like your average beat'em-up. Hmmm. Odin's Sphere is literally one of my favorite PS2 games. I got so into it. Played it all in only a few days. Then I played GrimGrimoire and was sorta disappointed, but still had an okay time. And, like I said, never played Muramasa. I need a PS3/Vita, though, heh. U:

[jeremywc]

Damn right it's a pejorative term. And it'll continue to be! It is frustrating when a thread goes in this direction, because I know it's an important thing to acknowledge, absolutely, but when it happens again and again among the same crowd of people, it's just travelling the beaten path.

 

I don't think this argument has ever held up to any kind of logical scrutiny. There is no difference between directly telling someone to stop bringing up a problem and making a general complaint that you're tired of discussing the problem. Either way, you don't want to hear about it.

 

Unfortunately, that's a bad recipe for engineering social change. The only way things get better is if people continue to press the issue. It IS exhausting to constantly revisit the issue, but if we don't, change will never happen.

[I Saw Dasein]

Damn right it's a pejorative term. And it'll continue to be! It is frustrating when a thread goes in this direction, because I know it's an important thing to acknowledge, absolutely, but when it happens again and again among the same crowd of people, it's just travelling the beaten path.

But I never asked you to shut up, and never implied you should. Sorry you're reading that in my post. You're dead wrong. The core of my complaint is that this topic "COMPLETELY dominates a thread until people get sick of talking about it". As for my responding to the sexism stuff, and not participating in the gameplay discussion... well, that's where the thread was when I found it? Then, it continued to go in that direction. And, yeah, I thought it might turn out to be an interesting discussion, so I didn't fight it. Then it turned into the same damn discussion as every other thread it happens in.

Just because you are frustrated or not interested in a topic doesn't mean that others feel the same way. If you don't want to talk about sexism in games, don't talk about it--no one is forcing you to read or respond to that aspect of this discussion. This is not your personal thread, and the conversation does not exist purely for your benefit. Personally, I'm at least as interested in taking a critical eye to games as I am interested in chatting about gameplay, and I think it's OK for that kind of conversation to take place in this forum.

[Twig]

la la la it's not worth continuing a meta argument sorry everyone i quit

[Tanukitsune]

YES! This is why I find this thread so frustrating, we can all agree it's sexist to sexualize a woman's character. We all know it, so want is the point of talking about it if nobody is arguing AGAINST this?

 

All we've got from this is some minor gameplay trailers, and it looks like those old D&D arcade game from Capcom and according to the sparse Wikipedia article, the art designer had worked on that D&D game from Capcom and say they intend to "advance the genre" and make a game in that style.

 

So, we can't really know what to expect from it apart from being a brawler, it's very likely to have RPG stats, that's about it?

[Zeusthecat]

Man, this thread has taken a tragic turn. I went back and read through all of the posts and I have to say there was a good amount of ad hominem and a few red herrings that poisoned this discussion fairly early on and honestly both "sides", if there even are sides, are guilty of this.

 

I think this is a good discussion to have in general but this has devolved to a point that there isn't even a coherent argument anymore. Hearing people with different opinions share why they feel a certain way makes us all better people. Instead of holding some notion that our opinions are somehow more correct than others I think it is more productive to just put your opinion out there, acknowledge that it is just an opinion, and respectfully listen to opinions that differ from yours. Seriously, people here are fucking smart and emotionally intelligent and I find it very rewarding to read what others have to say. However, the second people start saying things like "I can't believe you think this" or "I can't argue your point so let me bring up another point as a diversionary tactic" the intelligent conversation takes a backseat to monkeys throwing poop at each other. When poo flinging starts, it is probably a good time for a topic to be dropped.

 

As a random closing thought, I think a debate thread(s) would be kind of cool. Pick a hot topic and have some intelligent conversation about it. Basically the opposite of CNN forums.

[Ben X]

the intelligent conversation takes a backseat to monkeys throwing poop at each other.

 

Welcome to feminism/misogyny/sexism debates on the Idle Thumbs forums!

[Zeusthecat]

Welcome to feminism/misogyny/sexism debates on the Idle Thumbs forums!

 

It's so weird though. Of all of the intelligent conversation I've seen (not including all the stupid shit I post) I just don't get why people revert to fallacies on these topics when they are already making good arguments. Why are people so desperate to be "right"? I understand this is a much more personal subject and it is easy to let emotions take over but damn, if there were people out there that were actually right about everything then all of the world's problems would be solved. Can't we all just agree to disagree on agreeing to disagree?

[Gormongous]

Well, with debates on sexism and misogyny, being right is implicitly tied to being a good person and being wrong to being a bad person, even though most of us are aware in the abstract that saying a bigoted or ignorant thing doesn't make you bigoted or ignorant unless you keep saying it in the knowledge that it's bigoted or ignorant. We all want to be good people. I think all of us are, too.

 

Personally, after the Feminist Frequency debacle, I've tried to stay away from conversations like this one unless I have something really useful to add. I don't care about being right nearly as much as I used to, but I still like to fight sometimes, which is the last thing we all need here.

[Ben X]

Speaking of the Feminist Frequency thread:

 

http://www.idlethumbs.net/forums/topic/8469-feminist-frequency/page-20#entry226708

 

 think this thread went on for so long and got so awful at points because it has the feminism thing tied into it, which is one of those subjects that people seem to need to WIN rather than discuss (cf. the Feminism thread). When the second thread comes round, I think it'll go a lot nicer if everyone gets out of that mindset and stops insulting or trying to shut down other people's opinions. Disagreeing with others' arguments is fine, but calling them absurd or garbage isn't very constructive, and telling someone why they have their opinion is rather presumptuous and rude. Also, saying that a certain aspect shouldn't be discussed or that things are being over-discussed seems counter-intuitive on a discussion forum. Finally, it would be sage to remember that we have at least one troll floating around and if someone's particularly winding you up, that may be exactly what they're aiming for.

 

Of course, I won't say that the way people have been discussing things has been "wrong", because that would make me a giant hypocrite. This is merely my opinion, and one I've been itching to say through most of this thread but couldn't find the place for. It's not an exaggeration to say that I've been very disappointed with people on both sides of this thread at times, but a lot of good discussion has come out of it as well so I'm looking forward to the second thread!

 

This pretty much all applies to this thread too!

 

I think that thread plus the Feminism thread should be required reading for anyone about to start a further Thumbs discussion about misogyny (or "sexism" as some are calling it).

[osmosisch]

YES! This is why I find this thread so frustrating, we can all agree it's sexist to sexualize a woman's character. We all know it, so want is the point of talking about it if nobody is arguing AGAINST this?

In this very thread people have claimed things like 'oh the men are sexualised too' and 'that barbarian isn't sexualised at all' so it seems to me that there's no agreement at all.

 

Further, if this doesn't get brought up as a negative about a game, it will never change. If it's not made perfectly clear again and again that this type of thing is Not OK and Not Actually Normal it's always going to be like this, which is just a too-depressing thought.

[Tanukitsune]

Yes, and we brought up the concept of false equivalence... and they seem to have shut up.

 

Yes, I agree, it is not normal for OUR culture, it not OK for our culture and while I'm no expert, it's seems to OK and normal for them. Can we at least agree that a different country might have different views on sexuality and sexism? It's pretty sick and disgusting to us, but it's the truth. Heck, that's why we have different rating systems in each country, what could be PG in Europe, could be N-17 in America.

[I Saw Dasein]

Japan may have different standards, but to the extent that I am being asked to consume a product I will apply my own standards to it. For example, I probably won't eat dog curry, even though dog curry is OK and normal in Indonesia (or so Obama would have us believe...). Sexism doesn't stop being sexism just because it originates in a culture that is less sensitive to that issue.

[Zeusthecat]

Speaking of the Feminist Frequency thread:

 

http://www.idlethumbs.net/forums/topic/8469-feminist-frequency/page-20#entry226708

 

 

This pretty much all applies to this thread too!

 

I think that thread plus the Feminism thread should be required reading for anyone about to start a further Thumbs discussion about misogyny (or "sexism" as some are calling it).

 

Thanks for the thoughtful insight Ben. I guess I haven't been around here long enough to see some of the previous discussions on this topic and wow, it is surprising how nasty it got. I agree that people should totally read up those threads to see how these conversations should and shouldn't work.

 

Well, with debates on sexism and misogyny, being right is implicitly tied to being a good person and being wrong to being a bad person, even though most of us are aware in the abstract that saying a bigoted or ignorant thing doesn't make you bigoted or ignorant unless you keep saying it in the knowledge that it's bigoted or ignorant. We all want to be good people. I think all of us are, too.

 

Personally, after the Feminist Frequency debacle, I've tried to stay away from conversations like this one unless I have something really useful to add. I don't care about being right nearly as much as I used to, but I still like to fight sometimes, which is the last thing we all need here.

 

I can't argue with what you're saying about people thinking that right=good and wrong=bad. It's just too bad that people tend to have such a rigid, binary viewpoint. As far as this thread goes, it actually seemed like there was a consensus where everyone recognized that there is a fundamental problem with how women are portrayed in society but then got caught up trying to argue the gray area. I think the fact that some people find this funny or at least not a big deal (women included) and some people find it offensive (men included) shows that there are many ways to look at it and there is not necessarily a "right" or "wrong" associated with an artist deciding to portray characters in this fashion. 

 

To re-state my stance, I am not a fan of this design and I do think it has the potential to be sexist depending on how the rest of the subject matter is handled. However, it could also have something smart or super sarcastic to say about its own design (which I honestly don't think will be the case) and if that were the case my stance would change. And again, if they had taken it to ultimate levels of absurd with the proportions I would have just laughed because I think there is a point where something gets so absurd that almost anyone can laugh.

[Tanukitsune]

I'm not saying we should accept their standards, just acknowledge they are different, that is all. I never said to accept their differences, just accept they are different.

 

Urg, I feel like we're arguing semantics now and since sexism is a subjective term it's a pretty stupid thing to do and I feel like I'm the "other side".

 

I'm not saying anything more until it's out, what's the point anyway? I'm not trying to defend the game, I'm just saying this is probably the stupidest game to have the argument over and since I have a feeling people think I am defending the game it's time to call it quits...

[Argobot]

I've typed and deleted a response to this discussion so many times today, but I feel a really strong (selfish) need to add something, so apologies for coming in on the tail end of this.

 

When discussions revolving around sexism/misogyny/whatever come up, the conversation gets to a personal place really quickly, because those issues are inherently personal. My definition of what offends me is different from someone else's, because those definitions are based off a set of unique lived experiences. When I say "this game makes me feel uncomfortable," I don't expect everyone to agree with me, but I do expect people to listen and understand where I'm coming from. I think there's a huge difference between someone not feeling the same kind of discomfort as me, and someone actively disagreeing with my right to feel uncomfortable or trying to diminish my discomfort with excuses or justifications, which is hard for me not to take personally. Because this topic is incredibly personal for me. We can argue to death what is sexist and what isn't, but at the end of the day, unless you experience this kind of stuff on a daily basis (just the other day when I was outside jogging, some dude mimed bouncing breasts at me from his car and then laughed, because haha, breasts are funny!) it's kind of hard to truly understand why people have such an emotional stake in these conversations.

 

But in the future, I'm going to do my best to separate my personal investment from this types of conversations, because getting into roundabout forum discussions is probably never going to convince anyone of anything. Just like I'm asking for others to empathize with my circumstances in relation to these issues, I too should empathize with the fact that not everyone feels the same way as I do and that doesn't make them 'wrong' it just makes them human beings with their own thoughts and feelings.

 

Anyway, that's all. See everyone again when the next FemFreq video gets released.

[Zeusthecat]

Wonderful post Argobot. *slow clap*

[youmeyou]

[Ucantalas]

Excellent. Now, my big question: From the looks of it, it seems like some kind of RPG-ish action brawler type game. I can assume based on the characters that they will have different abilities and possibly play styles. So I want to know: How do you guys play games with different play styles? Do you go for the wizard? The long range bows/guns/what-have-you? Or do you like to grab the biggest sharp thing in the game and smack everything in sight with it?

(I'm definitely of the latter persuasion, personally.)

[Zeusthecat]

In Gauntlet Legends (which I still have on the N64) I always chose wizard or archer. The special moves were just so badass.

[Ben X]

unless you experience this kind of stuff on a daily basis (just the other day when I was outside jogging, some dude mimed bouncing breasts at me from his car and then laughed, because haha, breasts are funny!) it's kind of hard to truly understand why people have such an emotional stake in these conversations.

 

Fucking hell. I honestly would appreciate an ongoing thread where the female forum members post whenever some shit like this (or #1reasonwhy type stuff) happens, to remind me of how constant and truly galling it must be.

 

But yeah, where is the second Fem Freq video, anyway? Typical lazy feminist.