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Erkki

Is Game of Thrones sexist?

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Thinking about it a bit more, does anyone remember if there is any sections in the books where the story is told from Joffery's PoV? 

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Ros isn't even in the books.

Ok, removed it. Indeed I guess I remembered incorrectly. Then was there another character, I seem to remember that scene from the books?

 

edit:

I might have remembered an episode from Season 2 instead, where Joffrey was threatening her with the crossbow and extrapolated that in my memory...

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I have had this discussion in the past, and I would definitely say the show/books aren't sexist at all.  If you look at them at face value, things are pretty gross, but Martin's smartest/strongest characters are the women!  

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The show is definitely shot in a way that parades sexual violence towards women in front of the viewer for titillation. Like the scene in the previous episode, you can have Joffrey do that and communicate it to the viewer, but you don't have to compose the scene like that, light it like that, etc. There are endless ways of communicating with the viewer, but HBO sure likes to show women's bodies in completely compromised positions.

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I think saying "HBO likes to do X" doesn't really sit right with me, the network itself probably deliberately would be very hands off with choices GoT's production staff might have to make.

Perhaps closer in my mind would be "HBO hands off management attracts the types of writer who like to do X"

Specifically I feel it's something that must come from one of the shows two main writers/producers (David Benioff & D.B. Weiss) but we really don't know because of the way TVseries are made, but in the end i think the buck stops with those two.

Even if in their script the scene was described differently, and then was filmed in a different way, they still would have had the power as producers to ask for a Re-shoot if they felt it didn't say what they wanted it too.

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The show is definitely shot in a way that parades sexual violence towards women in front of the viewer for titillation. Like the scene in the previous episode, you can have Joffrey do that and communicate it to the viewer, but you don't have to compose the scene like that, light it like that, etc. There are endless ways of communicating with the viewer, but HBO sure likes to show women's bodies in completely compromised positions.

Does seeing a woman's bloody corpse with crossbow bolts sticking out of it seriously approach "titillation" for you, or does it not, and you just imagine that that's the intent? I can't even see what you mean by "compose the scene like that, light it like that".

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Hey, wanna phrase that in a way that isn't seriously insulting?

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Does seeing a woman's bloody corpse with crossbow bolts sticking out of it seriously approach "titillation" for you, or does it not, and you just imagine that that's the intent? I can't even see what you mean by "compose the scene like that, light it like that".

 

I didn't read brkl's post as referring to that scene as titillation, but making a reference towards what he see's as a general trend in the show, and implying that might be part of the directors intent.

 

As for the scene composition and lighting of course there is room for them to have a effect on any scene of violence.

Imagine the difference in impact between shooting a scene where a camera lingers on a clearly lit body, and another composition where we see a character react to something then get a partial reveal of a body in the shadows, followed by a quick cut away.

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I read it as brkl using that scene as an example of the show trying for titillation. If that read is accurate I don't see why it's offensive to ask if he thought that was successful. I meant it as asking if that scene really reads to him as something intended to titillate, I'm not accusing anyone of digging it. Sorry if offensive.

Re the composition, I didn't think it was too much - it didn't linger, it wasn't a nude, there wasn't a huge amount of blood. I don't think there'd have been anything to gain by making it more vague.

I feel like I'm forgetting some scenes though if sexualised violence is considered to be a huge deal in the show. What's there been other than Joffrey's exploits?

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There's tons you could have done with just that bit to convey the message other than just showing the end result. Such as a short scene shot from behind the victim showing Joffrey's expression as he is committing the act. The way they ended up doing it is essentially a far, far less horrific version of that Dead Island torso sculpture they still sell with some editions of the game. What reminds me of that sculpture is how the breasts have fortunately been saved from the violence so viewing pleasure isn't reduced. 

 

And obviously it's there for titillation. That's the reason they find reasons to show naked or half-naked women so often. Then there's another kind of titillation, gratification of another "primal" impulse for violence. Combining these two is taboo and breaking it leads to a bit of a shock, ending the episode on a high note in terms of impact. 

 

So I think those elements are a bit of a problem. In the grand scheme of things, GoT has very strong female characters compared to most shows, they are active participants and interact with each other. I think the Joffrey scenes presented an opportunity to be a bit naughty, which HBO grabbed with both hands. I'd have preferred if they chose to explore what's compelling Joffrey to act this way and how he feels about it rather than just having the audience participate in it as a viewer.

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Boy, I arrive late for all the fun threads, don't I? Quick two cents, then, before I head back to my month from hell:

 

 

 

Compare that to other fantasy or historical-focused literature, where the author beats you over the head with how sexist everything was and how awful life was for most women, and you can tell the author wants you to think: "wow, things sure were terrible for women back then, glad that our modern age isn't like that at all!" These female characters have no agency; they're stand ins so the modern audience can feel better that women aren't treated this poorly anymore.

In my opinion, Martin's work slides neatly alongside Mantel's in this regard, although I've yet to read any of her work. There's a pretty long conversation in the second book - and a lot of inner-monologues in the fourth - about the kind of attitudes a woman in Westeros must take to survive. Unfortunately, the show hasn't revealed a lot about what makes a lot of these women be the way they are, so I can't spoil.

 

Is there a little bit of goggling at women in the books? Sure. But most of it takes place within the POVs of characters who do that anyway, like Theon.

 

I've only seen the first season of the show, which I agree was rampant with nudity. That's HBO's decision.

 

Also, starting from the second book is a huge mistake.

 

Finally:

 

 


“I don’t like that woman.” Arya Stark, in reference to a creepy woman who  has randomly shown up at her group’s hidden camp in the middle of the woods.

“That’s because you’re a girl.” Smirking dude.

 

I'm pretty sure the line here means that said woman is attractive and Arya doesn't trust her because she's not attracted to her.

Finally:

 

but who knows, given the way GRR Martin stories are written, this seemingly throwaway character could end up being the new king next season

 

 

I don't know if this was a comment on the show, but I feel that this line was a bit dismissive. For something as meticulously crafted as Ice and Fire, without all its foreshadowing and careful, deft movement of the pieces, that's terribly unfair. I understand that fantasy isn't seen as a terribly intellectual or mind-expanding enterprise to pursue, but it remains a well-crafted story.

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I'm pretty sure the line here means that said woman is attractive and Arya doesn't trust her because she's not attracted to her.

Pretty much definitely that, and not "har har women sure are catty aren't they?" Certainly a dumb trope, but more insulting to the men for being braindead where boobs are involved.

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Maybe, but if the joke is meant to be at the man's expense, wouldn't it have made more sense to say "that's because you're not a man" vs. "that's because you're a woman" ? Actually emphasize the gender you're supposedly mocking.

 

 

And I'd just like to point out that everything I've said was aimed at the TV show, as I have not read the books and cannot offer an opinion on them. I don't really think the show itself is 'sexist' but that it does often have questionable elements in how it writes or frames women or other minority characters. I didn't create the title of this thread; I just wrote an inane blog post that has led to much more interesting conversations on how gendered violence is portrayed on screen and the diverse reactions that people have to that kind of violence. Which is way more interesting the the snarky jokes I was making at the expense of this HBO show.

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Yeah, this has been an interesting thing to read over and as much as I want to comment, I'm swamped with deadlines and finals. I hope you all don't mind my coming in here later and posting things, though that could be a few weeks from now.

 

Either way: good show, thumbs. 

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