I Had A Random Thought...

[Zeusthecat]

It's inherently silly to get offended by any word because the notion of "offense" is a silly thing and there's nothing inherently offensive, just stuff that society has deemed offensive.

So it sounds like you agree with me then? I originally said "I would probably still think it is stupid for any person in any society to be offended by a word without understanding why they are offended by it." which seems fairly in line with what you are saying.

And to be clear, I have tried to be careful not to state what people should and shouldn't do. I'm just some dude spouting off my opinion. Just because I think being offended by the word 'fuck' is stupid doesn't mean that I think people shouldn't feel that way. I just think they are being stupid for feeling that way. But it's okay to be stupid. I'm being stupid right now. That doesn't mean that I shouldn't be stupid, just that I am. Plus I'm a Vulcan.

Obviously, we don't live in a perfect world, and people are going to find all manner of things offensive, even at their most innocent, but well what're you gonna do.

Well, I guess you could take a Valium.

[Drewcifer]

And you may consider this petty, but I think it's important to seek a dialog about these things, just because it potentially sets a horrible precedent, as people can be offended by very different things and not all of those situations can nor should be treated equally by the offender. Hence the initial question. I think it's utterly stupid not to do something, just because it offends someone, but it's almost always worthwhile to try to understand why that is the case.

Sorry, I wasn't being specific. I was talking about my reaction to everyday strangers, not my reaction to when a friend or family member is offended. With them, I agree it's important to talk it out. But when someone I don't know confronts me, I'd rather not offend them than debate over it. I agree with what everyone's already concluded on, that people have a right to be offended. Generally, what the person is offended over doesn't cross any boundary with me, so I just say fuck it, and stop.

[Twig]

Well, I guess you could take a Valium.

DANGMN

[Ucantalas]

Valium? I hardly know 'em!

[elmuerte]

Wow.. a lot of text/interesting discussion.

 

 I get the whole "don't use the lord's name in vain" crap but I never understood exactly why I was supposed to be offended by those other words.

But you don't. As far as I know there are two cases where this phrase is commonly used:

1) When people use Jesus (Christ). But, Jesus is not the lord. He's a prophet. Saying Jesus is the lord is even a violation of the the 10 commandments. "Thou shalt have no other gods before me".

2) When people say things like "god damn". God isn't its name, it's its title. Jews have a name for their god, but they don't use it because of that particular commandment. So they refer to god by the title (or other descriptive name). The Christians were just lazy to make up a name, or do something about it. So just assume, considering it's the same god anyway, the christian god has the name as the Jewish god. But nobody uses it. It's always "god", "lord", "the spirit", "the light", etc..

 

 

 

Using certain words to utter feelings is taught just like the "being offended" by those words. Calling somebody "gay" used to be a positive thing, and how it's different. Now people are offended when you call them merry, or colorful.

I'm glad that I'm not offended by words, only by sentences.

[Sententia]

I don't know if I'd state it as 'people have a right to be offended', but rather that we should recognize that the mental state of being offended is a physical emotion that people have and it may be uncomfortable to them, and we should take that into consideration.  I don't think fuck is a word that should be offensive to anyone because I don't think there's a legitimate, non-stupid reason for it, so I don't mind making people uncomfortable by using it casually.  In my view they're the ones who need to get used to it or correct whatever's happening on their end to make them uncomfortable, and not me who needs to change my speaking habit.  There are other words like bitch that have even a small chance of having a legitimate objection to and I have no problem dropping.

 

The definition of offended seems a bit confused thus far.  It looks like we have slightly misaligned definitions, so I'll make mine clear: it's an emotional response that one has as an unconscious reaction.  It might be anger, disgust, fear, something like PTSD for victims maybe, it's the umbrella term for your negative emotional reaction.  It can have other applications, for example if a smell is offensive it would be a negative olfactory reaction, but here we're applying it to emotions.

[Gormongous]

When people use Jesus (Christ). But, Jesus is not the lord. He's a prophet. Saying Jesus is the lord is even a violation of the the 10 commandments. "Thou shalt have no other gods before me".

 

I am having delusions of a really in-depth discussion of Christology on this forum. Not possible, but still.

 

Adoptionism and psilanthropism were condemned as Christian heresies in the First Council of Nicaea. According to every sect of Christianity today, Christ participates in the divinity of God partially if not totally.

[Zeusthecat]

Wow.. a lot of text/interesting discussion.

 

But you don't. As far as I know there are two cases where this phrase is commonly used:

1) When people use Jesus (Christ). But, Jesus is not the lord. He's a prophet. Saying Jesus is the lord is even a violation of the the 10 commandments. "Thou shalt have no other gods before me".

2) When people say things like "god damn". God isn't its name, it's its title. Jews have a name for their god, but they don't use it because of that particular commandment. So they refer to god by the title (or other descriptive name). The Christians were just lazy to make up a name, or do something about it. So just assume, considering it's the same god anyway, the christian god has the name as the Jewish god. But nobody uses it. It's always "god", "lord", "the spirit", "the light", etc..

 

I can only go off of what I was taught when growing up as a Seventh Day Adventist (read member of a cult) which I'm sure will differ from other religions. We didn't make any distinction between God as a title and God as a name. God was simply God, the holy ghost, heavenly father dude. I was also taught that Jesus Christ was part of the holy trinity and was just as much God as the holy spirit was. So to us Jesus Christ and God were one and the same. God was basically Brad Pitt and Jesus Christ was Edward Norton.

 

So from the perspective I was raised with, saying things like "Jesus Christ" and "Goddamn" was not a violation of the first commandment, it was a violation of the third commandment. His name was supposed to only be used with reverence and uttering it out of frustration or using it as a common expression in that manner was considered to be using it in vain. But it still never said anything about "fuck".

[elmuerte]

So... if Jesus is part of God, he cannot possibly be the son of God, right. Hmm.. I treading dangerous waters here, trying to reason about religion never worked for me so far.

[Zeusthecat]

So... if Jesus is part of God, he cannot possibly be the son of God, right. Hmm.. I treading dangerous waters here, trying to reason about religion never worked for me so far.

 

Yeah, this always blew my mind too but that's what they expected us to believe. He sent his only son, but his only son was really him. They really tried to sell us on the holy trinity concept with the father, son, and holy spirit all being one. It's shit like this that made me an atheist but it's cool that they were trying to do the whole Fight Club concept long before movies existed.

[Malice Song]

Well, it's God, so it's probably not that simple. I figure the dude can basically do and incarnate however he pleases.

 

However, wasn't Jesus fairly cross with him at the end? ("My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?")

That's a bit weird then.

[Zeusthecat]

Well even though Edward Norton knew he was the same person as Brad Pitt he still couldn't stop Brad Pitt so he shot himself in the face. I think Jesus figured out the same thing and he knew that the only way to stop god's nefarious plans was to be crucified. Then he regained control and we got the mellow version of god that we see now.

[brkl]

Tycho, awesome posts in this thread. Fantastic. I would never had had the energy to discuss the complexities of language in this thread, but now it's out there and well spoken.

Words don't have objective meanings. The meanings they carry for us are shifting constantly and are only compatible to some degree with the meanings they carry for other people. Often we don't notice the difference, but it's always there. Sometimes there's an obvious clash. Sometimes we'll cause offense or hurt and never even know it because our words carry meanings for people we weren't aware of. There's no way to totally avoid it, but it's generally a good idea to be as aware of your surroundings as you can and act accordingly.

There are tons of reasons to be offended by the use of the word 'fuck'. There are obvious ones: people who identify and broadcast themselves as people who don't say 'fuck' don't mix well as people who identify and broadcast themselves as people who say 'fuck' a lot. So there's a surface level "You're not like the kind of people I like!" offence, which is pretty petty. As mentioned before, for many it's an impolite word and they feel as strongly about it as you feel it's not. So when you use it, you are choosing (or seem to be, it's irrelevant) to be disrespectful. When they hear it, they face a multiple choice decision of how to interpret that: maybe you disrespect them personally, their values, what they represent, their beliefs, their mother or the situation you are in or all of the above. They may even know you probably didn't mean it, but it still feels the same.

So when you stub your toe and yell "Fuck!" at a funeral, not everyone is going to interpret it as "He's in pain and used an expletive to release pressure", but as "He should have held his tongue in order to not disrespect the occasion".

Or maybe you don't think it's okay to say 'fuck' at a funeral or some other occasion. Or is it okay at all times? There's no way to use logic to decide where it's actually okay and where it's not.

However! Obviously it would be good to learn that other people communicate differently and do your best not to be offended by every 'fuck' that you come across. But maybe it's not as easy as you'd think.

[Twig]

When people use Jesus (Christ). But, Jesus is not the lord. He's a prophet. Saying Jesus is the lord is even a violation of the the 10 commandments. "Thou shalt have no other gods before me".

Jesus is God (and also the Son of God (it's weird)), according to the Christian belief. Muslims believe him to be a prophet. Jews believe him to be a Cool Dude.

 

 

Well even though Edward Norton knew he was the same person as Brad Pitt he still couldn't stop Brad Pitt so he shot himself in the face. I think Jesus figured out the same thing and he knew that the only way to stop god's nefarious plans was to be crucified. Then he regained control and we got the mellow version of god that we see now.

Best Theory

[Malice Song]

Obviously it would be good to learn that other people communicate differently

 

Pretty much the best statement on the topic.

[Sententia]

Or maybe you don't think it's okay to say 'fuck' at a funeral or some other occasion. Or is it okay at all times? There's no way to use logic to decide where it's actually okay and where it's not.

 

I agree with everything else you said except this.  Of course you can use logic to decide it! Just because it's a more complex and more personalized situation doesn't mean it's illogical or for some reason fundamentally different from any other difficult problem.  You can examine the reasons a person feels certain things, and if they have legitimate concerns you can change your behaviour.

 

In your example of the funeral I honestly think the vast majority of people are more concerned with volume than specifically what you say.  If you stub your toe and swear under your breath I don't see anything at all wrong with it, but if you stub your toe and say "owie!" loudly that's much more undesirable.  Basically I don't think putting the situation in the context of a funeral changes anything relevant to whether swearing is permissible.  People who dislike swearing don't dislike it more or less at a funeral, it's just that volume takes a considerably higher value.

[elmuerte]

Jesus is God (and also the Son of God (it's weird)), according to the Christian belief.

That's really the first time I heard that. Christianity makes even less sense now. So Jesus did not die for our sins, because he's God and God is immortal.

[Twig]

Jesus also died for our sins, but he was resurrected. He was God made flesh. The man-form of God. If God was a man, he'd be his own son.

[brkl]

I agree with everything else you said except this.  Of course you can use logic to decide it! Just because it's a more complex and more personalized situation doesn't mean it's illogical or for some reason fundamentally different from any other difficult problem.  You can examine the reasons a person feels certain things, and if they have legitimate concerns you can change your behaviour.

 

In your example of the funeral I honestly think the vast majority of people are more concerned with volume than specifically what you say.  If you stub your toe and swear under your breath I don't see anything at all wrong with it, but if you stub your toe and say "owie!" loudly that's much more undesirable.  Basically I don't think putting the situation in the context of a funeral changes anything relevant to whether swearing is permissible.  People who dislike swearing don't dislike it more or less at a funeral, it's just that volume takes a considerably higher value.

That's not quite what I meant. I meant you can't use logic to arrive at some rule as to when it's objectively okay to be offended by the word and when not. You can use logic to examine individual people's kinks. To a degree.

And I really don't agree about the funeral thing! Your funerals or the people attending them must be different.

[Dewar]

That's really the first time I heard that. Christianity makes even less sense now. So Jesus did not die for our sins, because he's God and God is immortal.

 

The way it was explained to me back in Sunday school was that God wanted to know what it was like being human, so he took a piece of himself and made Jesus, who had all the faults, emotions, and problems that a real human had. When it came to the end of the Jesus's life, he, being human and having the same fears as us, wasn't thrilled for it to end even if he knew he'd be returning to be part of God again.

 

There are tons of sci-fi stories that borrow this idea in different ways. The STNG episode "I, Borg" comes to mind immediately. A part of the whole, who then experiences what it's like to be human, then doesn't want to go back. Yes, I'm saying that Hugh is Jesus.

 

Edit: Bablyon 5 slso played around with this concept a bit: 

[jeremywc]

That's really the first time I heard that. Christianity makes even less sense now. So Jesus did not die for our sins, because he's God and God is immortal.

 

It should be noted that not all denominations of Christianity buy into the idea of the Trinity. Unitarianism is the belief that God and Jesus are two distinct beings.

[elmuerte]

Christianity is really forked

[Gormongous]

Christianity is really forked

 

I can't find my Christian heresies/denominations flowchart, so have this instead:

Dark Green are non-Christian, Light Green are non-Christian with Christian influence, Blue are proto-Christianities, Salmon are Jewish or have Jewish influence, Purple are Catholic/Orthodox, Pink are Catholic/Orthodox heresies, and Yellow are "alternate" Christianities that could have been Catholic/Orthodox.

 

Ninety percent of the flowchart splits come from disagreement over the nature of Christ (whether he is partially or totally divine in substance, mind, and/or nature), with the rest coming from disagreement over the means of salvation (which, in part, also pertains to the life and mission of Christ).

 

Christianity is hella forked.

[elmuerte]

holy crap... I'm glad I denounced religion 22 years ago. This shit is crazy. How do people even know what to believe? Can they browse a commit log or something?

[Malice Song]

Ninety percent of the flowchart splits come from disagreement over the nature of Christ (whether he is partially or totally divine in substance, mind, and/or nature)

 

And here I assumed if someone was christian, surely the thing about Jesus would be his teachings.

 

This is very surprising.