Rob Zacny Posted April 24, 2013 Andrew Groen and Sean Sands join Rob to discuss how Heart of the Swarm has changed StarCraft 2, and the evolving competitive landscape. (Cover image: Enrique Espinoza courtesy MLG) Listen Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hexgrid Posted April 24, 2013 I think you got nailed by the shell redirect "<"; the podcast title is "We". Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Roswell47 Posted April 24, 2013 The Idle Thumbs front page looks awesome with that picture of Lee Young Ho. I will listen to the cast first thing tomorrow! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Flynn Posted April 24, 2013 I also wonder why we don't see more 2v2 in the competitive scene. The lone example I can think of is the CSL (collegiate league) which has single 2v2 match built into the best of 7 format. During the CSL finals there was actually a 2v2 match played with 40 thousand dollars on the line (Berkeley vs a Korean University). In terms of playing I have to gear myself up every time I do 1v1 ladder. I feel like I'm getting read to take a math test. I know it's going to be exhausting lonely hard work for the next 30+ minutes. But 2v2 is totally different. It's just hanging out and playing some games. Most of my friends who sill play starcraft (as opposed to just watch it) play only 2v2. I don't think is usual either, my guess is that most people who play starcraft casually (aren't studying build orders, watching videos online, etc) play mostly team games. This could perhaps be a bridge to bring more casual players in if Blizzard pushed it more. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sententia Posted April 25, 2013 There have been a couple attempts at 2v2 tournaments with actual money rewards, production, etc, the reason it's not really done anymore is because the viewership was simply never there. People don't tune in to 2v2 tournaments to nearly the same degree they watch normal tournaments. The other reason is because the game is balanced around 1v1, so pro 2v2 games all ended up being just variations of cheese or 1-base play every single game, it was pretty stupid. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Chris Posted April 25, 2013 I also wonder why we don't see more 2v2 in the competitive scene. The lone example I can think of is the CSL (collegiate league) which has single 2v2 match built into the best of 7 format. During the CSL finals there was actually a 2v2 match played with 40 thousand dollars on the line (Berkeley vs a Korean University). In terms of playing I have to gear myself up every time I do 1v1 ladder. I feel like I'm getting read to take a math test. I know it's going to be exhausting lonely hard work for the next 30+ minutes. But 2v2 is totally different. It's just hanging out and playing some games. Most of my friends who sill play starcraft (as opposed to just watch it) play only 2v2. I don't think is usual either, my guess is that most people who play starcraft casually (aren't studying build orders, watching videos online, etc) play mostly team games. This could perhaps be a bridge to bring more casual players in if Blizzard pushed it more. I only ever play 2v2. My friend Nick and I played 2v2 daily for about a year when WOL came out, and we've gotten back into it with HOTS. I just never want to play 1v1, it's too stressful. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Flynn Posted April 25, 2013 There have been a couple attempts at 2v2 tournaments with actual money rewards, production, etc, the reason it's not really done anymore is because the viewership was simply never there. People don't tune in to 2v2 tournaments to nearly the same degree they watch normal tournaments. The other reason is because the game is balanced around 1v1, so pro 2v2 games all ended up being just variations of cheese or 1-base play every single game, it was pretty stupid. It is a bit chicken and egg. The viewership isn't there but I can't think of a single big tournament like MLG that tried a 2v2 tournament. A few online things with barely any prizes are the only examples I can think of. Two weeks ago MLG did a 2v2 king of the hill online (for $100) and .... had more viewers than their regular weekly content by 2 or 3 times. Balance: They don't have tournaments because it's not balanced... and they don't balance it because they don't have tournaments. Maybe it is impossible to balance each race combination but to a certain extent that doesn't matter as long as their is enough variety for interesting games. I just think there's a disconnect between what people who play starcraft actually do, and the competitive scene, and bridging the gap a bit could go a long way. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sclpls Posted April 26, 2013 Maybe I'm wrong about this, but intuitively it seems like pro 2v2 would devolve into extremely defensive, and uninteresting to watch play. Like, why would you want to make the first move if that would expose you to attacks from the other players. When playing against friends or just at a more casual level though it's pretty awesome. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hexgrid Posted April 26, 2013 In the past I've found 1v1v1 more interesting than 2v2, but that could just be the games I played. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sententia Posted May 2, 2013 It is a bit chicken and egg. The viewership isn't there but I can't think of a single big tournament like MLG that tried a 2v2 tournament. A few online things with barely any prizes are the only examples I can think of. Two weeks ago MLG did a 2v2 king of the hill online (for $100) and .... had more viewers than their regular weekly content by 2 or 3 times. Balance: They don't have tournaments because it's not balanced... and they don't balance it because they don't have tournaments. Maybe it is impossible to balance each race combination but to a certain extent that doesn't matter as long as their is enough variety for interesting games. I just think there's a disconnect between what people who play starcraft actually do, and the competitive scene, and bridging the gap a bit could go a long way. Actually the tournament I was remembering was an MLG or IPL 2s tournament years ago, and I remember a few smaller ones maybe hosted by Playhem? They always had way smaller numbers their 1v1 equivalents, which is the fundamental reason why it's simply not financially feasible for tournament organizers to throw money at an unsuccessful venture. They tried it earlier and it didn't work, though small-scale events can be still be profitable even as 2s tournaments because there's much less overhead, large-scale events don't come close to breaking even. Take for example MLG's small 2s tournament, it was all online with only 100$ in prize money so there was practically very little expenses, which is the correct angle to come at it currently. As for balance, changes for 1v1 often have different effects for 2v2 and vice versa. Blizzard's doing a pretty good job so far, and getting continually better, of balancing the current six matchups. Throwing in like 20 more matchups would just be absurd, and aside from that the dynamics of 1v1 and 2v2 army compositions are frequently so different that many changes that would help balance in 1v1 would screw it up in 2v2 and vice versa. Blizzard has already stated they don't want to completely separate the different multiplayer modes so that units actually function differently if you play 1v1, 2s, 3s etc, so that's out of the picture as well. There's another issue that seriously hampers having big 2v2 tournaments, and that's pro player focus. Because the 1v1 and 2v2 metagames are completely different, any time a professional player puts into one takes directly from the other. If a player wants to be successful in tournaments, to make a name for themselves, attract attention from teams or sponsors, or if they're already on a team to get exposure for their sponsors and get the prestige of placing highly in a tournament, they need to spend as much time as they can spare on their most likely chance, and right now that's by far 1v1. Even if the 2v2 scene grows tremendously those tournaments still won't be as frequent nor as rewarding in terms of viewership and prize money as 1v1, and the players simply have to choose what's best for them, which would still be 1v1. The reality right now is that the winners of 2v2 tournaments are either pro players whose entire focus is 1v1 (like an MC-JaeDong team) and they just dip in to take the tournament with their mechanics, or the tournament is so small that no pro players are interested and it's all aspiring pro players who also don't do much 2v2. There's another issue in the way of big 2s tourneys, and that's the difficulties with having an offline tournament. Because practically all 2s players are 1v1-focused pros taking a swing at some free cash, MLG or IPL or GOM or whatever, they can't structure a 2s tournament to take place at the same time as the 1v1 side of it, because all the good players would do 1v1 and the usual 2s teams that do well in online tournaments wouldn't be present, they'd all be in the 1v1 part. So if MLG wanted to start incorporating 2s into their circuit in a big way, it wouldn't make sense to have their 2s tournament immediately following or in front of the 1v1 because then the total tournament time would roll way over the weekend, which hurts viewership. So functionally what would have to happen is an entire new league would have to be made focused solely on 2s tournaments, which would be difficult for the low viewership reasons as stated before, and because the tournament space is already fairly crowded. Basically what it comes down to in my mind is it's just not currently feasible, for the reasons above, to have big offline 2s tournaments. Right now there are some small online ones, which I think could grow a little, but it doesn't make financial sense to host a LAN tournament. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hexgrid Posted May 2, 2013 There's probably a semi-useful lesson to be taken from tennis here; they do 2v2 in tennis as well, but (in my admittedly small, largely uninterested in watching sports experience) people mostly talk about 1v1 tennis. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites