The Sun Also Rises by Ernest Hemingway

[Sean]

We never ended up reading this book on the Idle Book Club, so here's the original prediscussion thread moved to a more appropriate home in the general books forum. -Chris

[tberton]

I read this book four years ago. Maybe I'll go through it again for the podcast.

 

The two things I remember most clearly: it only gets interesting when they go to Spain and this book really made me want to fish.

[TychoCelchuuu]

This book owns.

Dude's dick is real fucked up, no? Rough luck I suppose.

[Nappi]

Nice! This book has been sitting on my to-read list, as well as on my bookshelf, for some time now. 

[Coods]

This book owns.

Dude's dick is real fucked up, no? Rough luck I suppose.

 

Having read this first in high school, I can say that this fact about Jake isn't outright stated anywhere, but is apparently obvious.

 

After much of the Gatsby discussion was about Fitzgeralds diction, I'll be curious to see what the thumbs think about Hemingway. The strange thing about Sun Also Rises is that a lot of the things I loved about Gatsby (protagonists that dont need to be "liked", terse prose and lost generation themes) I really didn't enjoy as much in this book. 

[pabosher]

YES!! I remember recommending this right at the beginning of the book cast's run. Probably my favourite book of all time.

[Max Ernst]

This is Hemingway's best novel. It isn't bogged down in macho stoicism, the female characters aren't paper thin and the novel has something substantial to say about people.

 

Without getting into plot details, this is similar to A Farewell to Arms in that it describes people who fail to live up to their own moral code. Each character is trying to reach their own ideal, as they recognize that their own shortcomings and the limitations of the universe will consistently conspire against them. It deals with the melancholy of recognizing how easy it is to not live up to your own standards. In this novel, this manifests in the directionless lives of the characters. The epigraph of the novel is very important here. While Jake is the exception, as he is much more motivated and self-assured, his physical shortcoming denies him of what he wants.

 

Also, this is the best example of how powerful Hemingway's prose can be. Using so little, he can evoke an emotion, or paint a scene, by using perfect word selection and tender understatement. Hemingway gets a lot of flack for being a simple writer, but I would argue that he is incredibly skilled at creating atmosphere and setting by simply highlighting a few key details: a boy playing with a goat, an old man drinking by himself, etc. Spain comes alive in this novel.

 

So good.

[pabosher]

It also contains my favourite line in all of literature: "She had curves like the hull of a racing yacht, and you missed none of it in that wool jersey."

[I Saw Dasein]

I read this book a number of years ago, so my memories of it are not very clear. I do remember really disliking it. I think my own feelings about masculinity and the relationship between sexes are so opposed to Hemingway's that I find it very hard to relate to his characters in any way. I also felt like the characters in this book in particular were terribly unsympathetic and frankly unrelatable, to the extent that I just really didn't care about their problems or even find them interesting.

 

The other thing that bothered me about the book was its antisemitism. The single Jewish character is treated with utter contempt, both by the characters and by the author, and for no particular reason (as far as I remember). There is something ominous about a book written in the inter-war period, set in Europe, and that treats a Jewish character so badly for no reason. 

 

So long story short, not my favorite Hemingway. I'm looking forward to hearing others' thoughts on the book though.

[pabosher]

This book owns.

Dude's dick is real fucked up, no? Rough luck I suppose.

It's a war injury, yeah. There's several allusions to it whenever he wants to sleep with Brett.

[Stephen]

This book owns.

Dude's dick is real fucked up, no? Rough luck I suppose.

You might even say that he's a member of the Lost Generation.

I expect to be berated for this comment. Mildly.

Also, while this is probably his best novel, I might prefer Islands in the Stream like a crazy person, or maybe even A Moveable Feast.

Nah, who am I kidding. The Sun Also Rises has one of the most perfect final lines in a book ever. It's so absolutely effortless that you don't really think about it like Hemingway sat there for some time thinking 'Oh gawd what is going to be the final line in the novel? How do I perfectly and poetically wrap up my genius?' whereas most other authors allow you to feel their breath prickling your neck hairs as they read over your shoulder going 'Aren't I good? Yes. This is good. So good. What a profoundly rapturous line of prose I have here. Wonders.'

Although, interestingly enough, rumor has it that Hemingway was such a perfectionist that he spent entire day's composing a perfect sentence. Nil and nix.

[TychoCelchuuu]

Hey this brought back a memory! I first read this in high school and while discussing it in class one day someone asked what "tight" means (it's a term that gets used a fair amount in the book). I offered my suggestion and everyone basically frowned and said I was wrong or not quite right or whatever. I'm still convinced I was right and I even feel very (very) slightly proud of having (in my mind) correctly figured it out (because even the teacher, a very smart person and one of my favorite teachers from high school, thought I was wrong) so in order to get rid of this pride (I'm always on a quest to be less proud of myself) let's see if my high school classmates (and teacher) were just inexplicably incorrect or if I actually legitimately should feel proud.

Here's what we'll do: read the book and decide what tight means, then post it in this thread or wherever. We'll see if everyone agrees with me! Here's my definition but if you read the spoiler before coming up with your own answer that defeats the point. Also don't Google it.

I think it means drunk. Also, somewhat anticlimactically, I saw an episode of Family Guy years ago where Stewie also used "tight" to mean drunk so I'm pretty sure I was right and my tiny flicker of pride is justifiable regardless of whether everyone else guesses drunk. But whatever.

[Coods]

Hey this brought back a memory! I first read this in high school and while discussing it in class one day someone asked what "tight" means (it's a term that gets used a fair amount in the book). I offered my suggestion and everyone basically frowned and said I was wrong or not quite right or whatever. I'm still convinced I was right and I even feel very (very) slightly proud of having (in my mind) correctly figured it out (because even the teacher, a very smart person and one of my favorite teachers from high school, thought I was wrong) so in order to get rid of this pride (I'm always on a quest to be less proud of myself) let's see if my high school classmates (and teacher) were just inexplicably incorrect or if I actually legitimately should feel proud.

Here's what we'll do: read the book and decide what tight means, then post it in this thread or wherever. We'll see if everyone agrees with me! Here's my definition but if you read the spoiler before coming up with your own answer that defeats the point. Also don't Google it.

I think it means drunk. Also, somewhat anticlimactically, I saw an episode of Family Guy years ago where Stewie also used "tight" to mean drunk so I'm pretty sure I was right and my tiny flicker of pride is justifiable regardless of whether everyone else guesses drunk. But whatever.

 

Haha, I love the work you've put in to resolving this hilariously forgettable dispute you had when you were in high school.

[Max Ernst]

Yes, that interpretation is correct. It was a fashionable word in the early 20th century. Feel free to cite me if you wish to brag to your friends.

[TychoCelchuuu]

Yes, that interpretation is correct. It was a fashionable word in the early 20th century. Feel free to cite me if you wish to brag to your friends.

That's okay I haven't seen or talked to any of those people in like, a decade.

[pabosher]

Well here's the perfect excuse.

[Nappi]

Yes, that interpretation is correct. It was a fashionable word in the early 20th century. Feel free to cite me if you wish to brag to your friends.

 

Yeah. As far as I remember, Dashiell Hammett used 'tight' in that context a lot. 

[Stephen]

Even moreso, the World English Dictionary cites tight as meaning drunk when used informally, although it is the thirteenth definition of the word.

[Corelli]

This book owns.

Not much more to say than this.

[Kraznor]

About two-thirds through it at present, haven't read it since my first year of college seven years ago.

 

Thoughts thus far:

I forgot the first hundred pages of this book existed. Jake's "matter-of-fact" descriptions of Paris make it sound anything but romantic, but I'm getting the vibe that is very purposeful. The place you live gets boring, or at least normal, after awhile so Jake doesn't describe it with any enthusiasm because he has none. This makes the descriptions of aspects of the Spain vacation more vibrant because it isn't what he sees everyday.

 

Harris is great, I'd want to go fishing with that guy. He is only briefly in there but he made a strong impression really quickly. 

 

Casual racism is one of the few things reminding me when this takes place. 

[Kraznor]

I've finished it. Do we need to hide spoilers here? Thought Idle Book Club discussions were pretty open about that, though I've only recently started listening and reading. 

[osmosisch]

I did not like this book. Broken characters, headed nowhere and having the same conversation over and over again. I get that it's supposed to be a commentary on a generation, but that only makes it worse.

 

The parallels with Gatsby are interesting. At least there the prose was enjoyable to me.

[pabosher]

I've finished it. Do we need to hide spoilers here? Thought Idle Book Club discussions were pretty open about that, though I've only recently started listening and reading. 

 

Yeah, at least in the pre-discussion. Podcasts can be listened to whenever, don't forget. Plus, you go in knowing there'll be spoilers. Here, you might just want a general book's feel before you start it and then listen to the show.

[Coods]

I did not like this book. Broken characters, headed nowhere and having the same conversation over and over again. I get that it's supposed to be a commentary on a generation, but that only makes it worse.

 

The parallels with Gatsby are interesting. At least there the prose was enjoyable to me.

 

This is the opinion I would have, if not for the few moments where some of the characters become more understandable, so to speak. And it ends on pretty satisfactory note, I think. iunno, It's always strange when i dislike a classic, because it feels like I'm just missing something.

[Max Ernst]

I think your complaints and the book's epigraph are linked pretty strongly. I think it is a perfect commentary of those who refuse to go anywhere, but I can understand your gripes.