Sean

Wolf Hall by Hilary Mantel

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We never ended up reading this for The Idle Book Club, so here's the original book club pre-discussion thread moved to a more appropriate home on the books subforum. -Chris

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When I started reading this I thought it was about the other Cromwell. Despite having spent about 2/3rds of the book subconsciously waiting for the monarchy to be overthrown, I still really enjoyed it. I'm about to start reading the sequel now.

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I've been waiting for this thread since I finished the book a couple weeks ago.

 

wolf_hall.jpg

 

My favorite thing about Wolf Hall is the sense of history that Hilary Mantel has built into it. Every character is the sum of their experiences, without exception. Reading about their experiences allows you to understand the characters without really even knowing them, at least not in the way that we are accustomed to knowing characters in novels, through explicit narration and all that jazz.

 

With Cromwell, we see the process of accretion, which is history to those who live it, create a man to whom I still feel an incredible connection, despite never really liking him in the historiography I've read. His experience as a soldier weighs on him, especially in his attention to the positioning of people and the movements they make. His experience as a cloth merchant weighs on him, especially in his attention to what people wear and what everything is worth. His experience under Wolsey weighs on him, in more ways than I could possibly list. Every piece of advice Wolsey gives Cromwell recurs again and again over the years, often with less specificity until it's just one of many habits Cromwell has.

 

I was initially quite unhappy with how Mantel passed over much of Wolsey's fall, considering how important it is to what follows. I like Wolsey as a historical and fictional character, so I was sad to see him gone with almost three hundred pages left to go. It didn't take me long to realize there was a logic behind it all, though. Wolsey remains present throughout the rest of the book, especially in his many absences, but also in the stories and lessons he left for Cromwell. We know what Wolsey would think of any given event, because that's the first thing Cromwell thinks of. We see how service under Wolsey made Cromwell who he is, as well as the joy and heartbreak of service itself, which is something too often missing from even scholarly books on medieval and early modern subjects.

 

I could go on and on, especially in my attempts to reckon what makes this attempt at historical fiction so special, but maybe after other people have talked more. I'm so eager for some discussion about this book. I couldn't convince any of my colleagues in the department to read a book about someone everyone knows is the "bad guy."

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I could go on and on, especially in my attempts to reckon what makes this attempt at historical fiction so special, but maybe after other people have talked more. I'm so eager for some discussion about this book. I couldn't convince any of my colleagues in the department to read a book about someone everyone knows is the "bad guy."

 

That is an incredible bummer. This is one of the best pieces of historical fiction I've ever read, and that's a big reason why. One of the things that makes it so fascinating and worthwhile is that it reframes Cromwell away from the popular public conception. 

 

What is your department? English history?

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What is your department? English history?

 

Just plain ol' medieval history. I'd probably have gotten a better response from early modernists who actually study the Tudors, but I'd never associate myself with the likes of them. As it stands, the two people who knew enough to discount More knew enough to discount Cromwell too. None of them have my affection for history's losers, like the aforementioned Wolsey.

 

I also happened to be watching Showtime's The Tudors when I started Wolf Hall, though I gave up on the former pretty quick. For a while it was really great, because the show, in which Cromwell is a sinister cipher, is stuffed to the gills with blood and sex. I could sometimes imagine both works taking place in the same continuity, with Cromwell so caught up in his own intricate perception of reality that he doesn't even notice all the tawdry bullshit, except when Mary Boleyn invades his personal space.

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Man I couldn't deal with that show. I watched a couple episodes and just thought it was awful. That's a funny image though--consistent enough with Mantel's telling.

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I absolutely adore this book. 

 

I had to put it down for a bit when (does it make sense to put spoilers about history?)

his wife and daughters die. It's written so starkly I found it cut me to the quick. Especially since I had been enjoying their household relationships so much in the preceding part.

.

 

Gorgeous writing. The 'he' being always Cromwell unless indicated otherwise took some getting used to but I found it really kept my attention with what was going on, which I think might have been a net positive.

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Man I couldn't deal with that show. I watched a couple episodes and just thought it was awful. That's a funny image though--consistent enough with Mantel's telling.

 

That show is the reason I waited years to actually read this book. I absolutely hate the Henry VII story, because of how gratuitously it's often handled by stuff like The Tudors, and I was fully expecting Wolf Hall to be more in line with that kind of story. But Mantel's writing is so amazing, and her Cromwell is so well-thought out, that I ended up loving this book despite myself. 

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"A Howling Good Read." - IGN.com

 

Sorry, sorry.

 

I finished this yesterday and would happily rank it among my all-time favourites.

 

Hilary Mantel has such an admirable, intimidating way of reshaping the English language to her will without ever seeming show-offy.  Every other page, a passage would make me respond audibly with a "wow", a wince, or simply a laugh in delight; not in reaction to the the story itself, but the way it was written.  Accomplished, but - I've ben grasping for the right term for a while now - practical?  Workmanlike?  Either she can write like this in her sleep, or every line is the work of incredible thought and economy.  Either way, it's just mind-boggling that she can apply that talent to a book of this size.

 

It's odd to call a reading experience exhilarating, especially for such a dense text, but here it fits.  It is exhilarating.  I felt I ought to be smoking a cigarette afterwards.

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Though the book reads itself, I'm nowhere near done... but I wanted to drop and share a passage that made me revere the author's skills:

His nieces, two good little girls, still clutch their rosary beads. They stare around them, unsure what they must do next. Ignored, as people talk over their heads, they lean against the wall and flick their eyes at each other. Slowly, they slide down the wall, straight backed, till they are the height of two years old, and balancing on their heels. 'Alice! Joannes!' someone snaps; slowly they rise, solemn-faced, to their proper heights. Grace approach them; silently they trap her, take off her cap, shake out her blonde hair and begin to plait it. While the brothers-in-law talk about what the cardinal is doing in France, his attention strays towards her. Grace's eyes grow wide as her cousin draw her hair back tight. Her mouth open in a silent gape, like a fish's mouth. When a squeak escapes her, it is Liz's sister, the elder Johanes, who crosses the room and scoops her up.Watching Johanes, he thinks, as he often has, how alike the sisters are: were.

I was lovestruck by this passage the first time I read it, without understanding why. Then I reread it. Several times.

I'm no literary critic, but I'm going to try and explain how. First, there's the very simple and elegant writing style as well as the unorthodox (at least for me) use of the punctuation that transmits the kinetics of the two girls' movement and attitude.

Then, there's the power of evocation: the vignette is rich and detailed on its own, but somehow, at the same time, the author also managed to paint at the edges of the reader vision the mood and complexity of the whole scene it is part of.

On top of that, in one short sentence, she quickly recommits to Thomas point of view, confirms the complexity of the scene, and by the way it blends with the ongoing description, hints at Thomas mental and emotional state. Finally, in two sentences, she confirms that state and finish with a use of colon that's like a small punch in the chest.

Amazing.

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Gorgeous writing. The 'he' being always Cromwell unless indicated otherwise took some getting used to but I found it really kept my attention with what was going on, which I think might have been a net positive.

 

I just started reading the book and her "he" has definitely been a stumbling block for me so far. I'm yet to see its benefits. The lack of quotation marks in some of the dialogue is quite puzzling too, but not nearly as disorienting as "he" is. 

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I feel really conflicted on the pronoun usage, and I know I've mentioned this in other discussions on the forums about Wolf Hall. Using 'he' makes Cromwell this huge, inescapable presence, which I'm sure is what Mantel was going for. But sometimes I think it gets away from her. There's a difference between making your dialogue challenging to force the reader to pay closer attention and unnecessarily obfuscating the text, and I think sometimes Wolf Hall falls into that latter category.

 

To be clear: I'm not trying to disparage the pronouns; I'm glad the book was written this way. I just think that Mantel has a few lapses with the pronouns in Wolf Hall where the writing could probably have been a little sharper.

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I feel really conflicted on the pronoun usage, and I know I've mentioned this in other discussions on the forums about Wolf Hall. Using 'he' makes Cromwell this huge, inescapable presence, which I'm sure is what Mantel was going for. But sometimes I think it gets away from her. There's a difference between making your dialogue challenging to force the reader to pay closer attention and unnecessarily obfuscating the text, and I think sometimes Wolf Hall falls into that latter category.

 

To be clear: I'm not trying to disparage the pronouns; I'm glad the book was written this way. I just think that Mantel has a few lapses with the pronouns in Wolf Hall where the writing could probably have been a little sharper.

 

By the end, I began to think that maybe the confusion was intentional, that we are supposed to be lured into thinking every "he" is Cromwell and then be frustrated. There was one part near final third of the book, when Cromwell and Norfolk were talking with the bastard Richmond, that was so bare of signposts that Mantel had to have meant it that way. I'm not certain of her purpose in doing so, though.

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So I went down to the court last night, I usually play at night under the lights, listening to music after a nice joint while I work on my jump shot. But last night I decided to get a head start on Wolf Hall by downloading it from Audible...which led to this exchange when a friend stopped by:

 

Him: "Yo! What are you rocking tonight Jimmy?" 

Me: "Just a SICK audiobook of historical fiction about the rise of Thomas Cromwell."

Him: "Ummm...word?" 

 

WORD SON

 

When it happened I was just struck by the absurdity of life. 

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So I went down to the court last night, I usually play at night under the lights, listening to music after a nice joint while I work on my jump shot. But last night I decided to get a head start on Wolf Hall by downloading it from Audible...which led to this exchange when a friend stopped by:

 

Him: "Yo! What are you rocking tonight Jimmy?" 

Me: "Just a SICK audiobook of historical fiction about the rise of Thomas Cromwell."

Him: "Ummm...word?" 

 

WORD SON

 

When it happened I was just struck by the absurdity of life. 

:tup: Awesome.

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I'll write up final thoughts when I finish the book, but I will say this now: thank god for the character sheet. There are a lot of people in this book and being that I don't have a firm grasp on how the religious and political hierarchy worked at the time, it can be a little confusing to try and work out who has leverage over another and who is subservient to who. I'm curious how audiobook people will go with it, considering they don't have the benefit of a character sheet always being on hand. 

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Something I really love about this book, is how realistic the political motivations feel. Usually in Henry VIII stories, the king's motivation is either based on his desire for a male heir or on his desire in general. You never get a sense for any grander ambitions beyond having a son, which is why I generally dislike stories based off of this time period. But Mantel manages to make you understand why it's so important for Henry to have an heir, by showing what a tenuous grasp he and his family have on the throne and how obsessed he is with his legacy. Cromwell is set up as the perfect foil to Henry's lofty, kingly goals; his pragmatism is a stark contrast to Henry's idealism and it makes all the political machinations feel so much realer.

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I finished this book a week ago, and loved it.

 

Now, I'll just come out and say it: I hadn't even heard the name Cromwell before; I've got smatterings of historical knowledge regarding certain eras, but my knowledge of Henry VIII's reign consisted of knowing that:

  • one of the Henrys had a bunch of wives
  • at some point the Church of England was established

I don't even have a third dot point.

 

So, coming to this book from that perspective was pretty cool; I had no idea that this base-born Cromwell fellow was going to rise to the station that he did, or that he'd play such a pivotal role in history, and learning about that rise as it "happened" was very enjoyable.

 

I purposefully kept away from Wikipedia while reading, so only afterward found out that Cromwell is usually painted in a negative light, and More positive, which offends me probably overly much, as from my perspective Cromwell is identifiable, big-hearted and well aware of his flaws, while More is just a dick.

 

Actually, I have a question for the people here who do actually know something about the period - how fictional exactly is Mantel's take on the events that occur? I realise that a lot of the details were probably estimated (for instance how Mantel has mentioned that she put two and two together regarding Cromwell's crying being partially due to the loss of his wife and daughters), but can I give it a similar level of credence I'd give another source of information on the topic that's labelled "non-fiction"?

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I finished this book a week ago, and loved it.

 

Now, I'll just come out and say it: I hadn't even heard the name Cromwell before; I've got smatterings of historical knowledge regarding certain eras, but my knowledge of Henry VIII's reign consisted of knowing that:

  • one of the Henrys had a bunch of wives
  • at some point the Church of England was established
I don't even have a third dot point.

 

So, coming to this book from that perspective was pretty cool; I had no idea that this base-born Cromwell fellow was going to rise to the station that he did, or that he'd play such a pivotal role in history, and learning about that rise as it "happened" was very enjoyable.

 

I purposefully kept away from Wikipedia while reading, so only afterward found out that Cromwell is usually painted in a negative light, and More positive, which offends me probably overly much, as from my perspective Cromwell is identifiable, big-hearted and well aware of his flaws, while More is just a dick.

 

Actually, I have a question for the people here who do actually know something about the period - how fictional exactly is Mantel's take on the events that occur? I realise that a lot of the details were probably estimated (for instance how Mantel has mentioned that she put two and two together regarding Cromwell's crying being partially due to the loss of his wife and daughters), but can I give it a similar level of credence I'd give another source of information on the topic that's labelled "non-fiction"?

Mantel has stated (and it seems her assertion is generally accepted) that she did exhaustive research, deferring to history when the facts were known and filling in the blanks when they were not. Of course, that's still a lot to fill in, especially with respect to Cromwell's interior life and with respect to specific dialogue between characters. So you can't really call it non-fiction, but it's certainly overwhelmingly more accurate than something like The Tudors.

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For more reading on the exhaustive research Mantel did/is doing for this trilogy, here's the text of a speech she recently gave on British royalty (the speech is actually more about Bring Up the Bodies than it is Wolf Hall, but it's really worth reading and gives you a good idea of how much thought Mantel has put into these books): http://www.lrb.co.uk/v35/n04/hilary-mantel/royal-bodies

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I'm going to go ahead and beat the same drum I always do. It's useless to talk about authenticity or accuracy in historical representations. Such things have been widely deprecated in scholarly circles for some time now anyway. The inner lives of persons past are lost to us today, so all we can do is construct characters who move through our existing understanding of events with some degree of verisimilitude, but never reality. In that respect, Mantel writes excellent history, though the lack of citations is somewhat damning, as is her ability to make us hate a beloved figure like Thomas More after some intimacy with his enemies and a few conversations.

 

You tend to lose the people in the events of history. I'm currently revising an article now about one thirteenth-century lord's motivation to go on crusade. It's a grueling business where I look at all the charters he ever witnessed and try to connect the dots in a shape that resembles a person. It's been three years now and I still don't really know him at all, whatever I might say while drunk at parties. Historical fiction does a better job, I think, because it's accountable to people rather than events.

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I started reading this book, got about a third of the way through, and ran out of steam. I think part of the reason I didn't finish is that I don't have a strong enough memory of the history behind the era. I remember the basic facts, but not all of the intricacies. Anyone have a good summary of the history, that might compliment my reading?

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Thanks for your collective insights, I think I have a better handle on framing my thinking on the subject.

 

 

 

For more reading on the exhaustive research Mantel did/is doing for this trilogy, here's the text of a speech she recently gave on British royalty (the speech is actually more about Bring Up the Bodies than it is Wolf Hall, but it's really worth reading and gives you a good idea of how much thought Mantel has put into these books): http://www.lrb.co.uk/v35/n04/hilary-mantel/royal-bodies

 

Argh, that writing. She takes you firmly by the elbow and walks you through her thoughts.

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part of the reason I didn't finish is that I don't have a strong enough memory of the history behind the era. I remember the basic facts, but not all of the intricacies.

An almost complete ignorance of the period wasn;t an obstacle for myself: I have devoured the novel on three seperate occassions and my only knowledge of the era, apart from a college course on The War of the Roses from Henry V to VII, is the mnemonic 'Divorced, Beheaded, Died. Divorced, Beheaded, Survived'.

 

I began to think that maybe the confusion was intentional

I would tend to agree: it's as if, in accumulating positions and influence, he sqeezes out other men until they are almost afterthoughts. Indeed, such is the strength of his character that this is happening even before any formal positions are bestowed.

 

a beloved figure like Thomas More

I don't know anything about the period, did he in fact preside over the torture and burning of 'heretics'? If so, how is he beloved by anyone?

As someone who almost never reads 'Historical fiction' (ie: a contemporary author exploring history), Gormongous, I would attempt to answer your question 'what makes this attempt at historical fiction so special' by saying that it is not special historical fiction, it is special fiction by any measure.

Wolf Hall is one of the most pleasurable novels I've ever read. As Gormongous mentioned earlier, Cromwell is clad in layers of history, public and private. These garments, if you will, are closely examined for colour, weave and texture as they are measured and cut for his person.

Despite not having read the novel recently and having no quotes to hand, a few scenes embedded themselves as exemplars:

The Cardinal, Cavendish and Cromwell on the barge (to Esher?) after being turned out of somewhere (maybe Esher :s). The trio are related to some form of Italian play and his grim drive is enshrined for us. Such a naturally apt framing of a tale's people and purpose is invaluable.

His wife's white cap, her prayer book (George finding him weeping over it) and Grace's wings (oh that 'did she ever know me'); symbols of his love and remembrance as humane and palpable as any in fiction.

The unveiling of his portrait and subsequent conversation with Gregory, his gentleman son (is that the scene where Gregory sorts his papers by size?). When asked if he always looks like a murderer Gregory replies 'did you not know?'. The tender pride with which he regards his son, more usually mocked, describes the responsibilities and values of a parent while revealing Cromwell's most relatable side.

'I, a simple Cardinal', several times Wolsey's over-humble self-description, always repeated by Cromwell; his smiling digestion of the phrase being not just a point of humour but a natural emphasis of the grand position in which his Cardinal resides, in the world and his own esteem.

Henry's resplendant person. The impact on him when (it might be at their meeting) Henry turns to reveal the full breadth of his person and, while they discuss war and the roles of ruler and subject, the nation turns with him.

The book is replete with such easy embellishments; character, place and action, all things are cherished, all woven together in the texturous language of a brilliant, colourful novel.

Which leads me to a question of my own. After Wolf Hall, Bring Up The Bodies failed to resonate with me. Am i alone in this? If not, what had changed? Was the second book overly reminiscent of the first? Were the images and thoughts chewed over because Mantell was scrabbling to recreate the majesty of the preceeding novel? Or was this a deliberate tack, a rumination on age and the weight of memories?

Has anyone here read Cavendish's memoirs, the ones mentioned by the author in the afterword? Worth reading for a non-historian?

PS. Sorry for being so longwinded: Wolf Hall is a perenniel favourite. When Chris brought it up as a candidate in one of the first Book Club pods I practically jumped for joy (or would have if I weren't iracing at the time). I've been anticipating the event ever since and am thrilled to discuss the novel with this great crowd.

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