Sign in to follow this  
Jake

Idle Thumbs 100: King Chromin' For A Day

Recommended Posts

I'm with Greg Brown on this one -- the Shocks seem to have stalled out for me after SS2. I feel like I'm being beaten over the head with story beats and character quirks. I also agree with Jon Blow's assertions on Twitter that the shield mechanic is useless and/or disingenuous design(I'm summarizing).

 

Regardless, I was grinning all the way through this episode. Jake's anecdotes continue to amaze and inspire.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm with Greg Brown on this one -- the Shocks seem to have stalled out for me after SS2. I feel like I'm being beaten over the head with story beats and character quirks. I also agree with Jon Blow's assertions on Twitter that the shield mechanic is useless and/or disingenuous design(I'm summarizing).

 

After reading this, I sought Blow's tweets out and I'm really taken by his argument. I think he's probably right that regenerating shields reduce tension between battles, require annoying design choices to counter, and teach players to ignore feedback. I'd be even more interested in alternatives, beyond a brief reference to Goldeneye's health mechanics.

 

In general, the Bioshocks have worked for me, though I haven't touched Infinite yet. But man, they have a bizarre enjoyment curve, especially with Bioshock 2, which bored me to tears for two hours, rocked my world for five, and then bored me for one more. There's a sweet spot where your options open up but haven't overwhelmed the game that I wish I could stay in forever. The whole of System Shock 2 felt like that, unless you got the Crystal Shard or whatever that was hax.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Blow:

Playing Infinite, I realize that Halo-style recharging shields are actually a huge mistake in shooter design. But all shooters use them now. Since people are going to ask: There are two problems; one is about emotional pacing, one is about gameplay crispness and fairness. With shields, you are always doing okay in the medium and long term. They low-pass filter the emotional high of surviving a tight situation. The crispness problem is: In order to provide difficulty, designers now have to overwhelm your shields all the time, which means designing situations that are spammy (get hit from all directions so you can't process what is going on).These are confusing and not fun. These feel messy to play but they happen all the time because they have to. Or, like Infinite does, have super attacks that take away all your shields at once *and* 1/3 of your health, which feels steeply unfair. With shields, you are always doing okay in the medium and long term. Also, shields train the player to ignore getting hit most of the time, which becomes grating at the end when guys start hitting hard. (You trained the players for one thing but then gave them another!) I think shooters are much stronger experiences when it matters if you got hit. In shield games you get hit all the time, like flies buzzing. You can have a tight situation on the order of 10 seconds, but not on the order of 5 minutes, which matters more. Yeah. I think there is nothing wrong with 30 seconds of fun, if one doesn't forget 5 minutes of fun, 1 hour and 5 hours.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Tomorrow's Escapist Headline: "Braid Designer Says Bioshock Infinite 'Messy and Unfun'"-- Do you agree, or believe that he is arrogant and pretentious and only made that one game which is just a ripoff of Super Mario/Prince of Persia anyway? Tell us in the comments section!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ever since playing hundreds of hours in Goldeneye multiplayer on 'one hit kill' mode i've always preferred the more realistic 'Getting shot matters' approach

 

Theres nothing worse that shooting someone in the face just for them to keep on smiling back at you, it totally breaks the immersion, for example when i shoot people in the face in the real world they sure as shit aint smiling afterwards

 

weapon of choice... the spud gun! please tell me everyone had a spud gun growing up!?

 

I just had a flash back reminiscing about Goldeneye. In 'One hit kill' mode, nothing strikes fear into a young boys heart like a karate chopping crouched odd job freakishly gliding towards you as you frantically spray and prey your KF7 Soviet. I can picture him now weaving in and out of creates in the archives corridor, ever nearing, relentless, unstoppable. 

34008_131324363568351_5930729_a.jpg

chills

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

i think recharging shields and recharging health have a place in shooters but not all of them, they work if they solve problems of a game eg. Call of duty 2- problem- infinite enemies spawn in buildings until you push forwards into the building and clear it out-solution= recharging health so you can actually push forwards and defeat the infinite enemies without needing infinite health packs spawning everywhere or just running out of health packs and putting the player in an impossible position (and shut up COD 1 & 2 were good) but with it being a feature in every shooter now i just find myself ignoring being shot,

like borderlands 2 i just didn't care at all about being shot because you had shields+recharging health+killing someone after you are downed revives you, so i just went berserk with dual shotguns and just ate up bullets while running straight at the enemy, and that worked most of the time it, and the times it didn't were as Jon Blow said when they spammed enemies at me or had really powerful attacks.

 

i do think heath packs are a bit of a problem on their own but i don't know what would be a better solution than recharging health... maybe checkpoints could give you back your health, i dunno if that would be better

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think shields provide the opportunity to spike tension, such as monsters hitting especially hard. The handymen in BSI. Without recharging shields they would have to die faster, or not hit as hard, because there aren't enough health kits for a sustained fight.

 

I think my favorite system was Painkiller 1, where the checkpoints that bookended the action replenished your health. It lets you play with abandon, but requiring strategy within encounters, rather than a long term health planning.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

A couple of things I had to yell out immediately. Haven't finished the cast, or read the whole thread -

 

~THESE MAY BE SPOILERS THOUGH DO NOT SPOIL ANYTHING MORE THAN LISTENING TO THE CAST~

 

I also definitely chose heads/tails. e: after reading the thread, wow, I thought I had made a choice as well. The brain sure is unreliable.

 

I wondered if the choice of Liz's brooch did anything. A friend said he thought it swapped back and forth while he was playing, but I didn't notice that.

 

I did not throw the baseball at all. You have the option to let it time out.

 

Re: Sean's "She'll be right back" rant, the difference between you and Chris having a wonderful date on the beach and Chris saying he's going off for a minute, comparing it to Elizabeth saying that is that Booker was specifically sent to the city to get Elizabeth and remove her from the city, and they had just been attacked and fell a billion yards onto a beach, and a contingent of people are being pretty antagonistic towards you. The second she says "WOO A BEACH I'LL BE RIGHT BACK!" my reaction through Booker was "holy shit do not let her out of your sight for one minute, she is the most valuable commodity in the entire city and doubly so for you." (I then prodded behind every shed for hot dogs in the sand because it's a Bioshock game, but my point stands)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

new gatsby trailer

 

 

infinite the movie the game the trailer

 

Ugh. I do not recall so much yelling in the actual novel. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Blow:

Playing Infinite, I realize that Halo-style recharging shields are actually a huge mistake in shooter design. But all shooters use them now. Since people are going to ask: There are two problems; one is about emotional pacing, one is about gameplay crispness and fairness. With shields, you are always doing okay in the medium and long term. They low-pass filter the emotional high of surviving a tight situation. The crispness problem is: In order to provide difficulty, designers now have to overwhelm your shields all the time, which means designing situations that are spammy (get hit from all directions so you can't process what is going on).These are confusing and not fun. These feel messy to play but they happen all the time because they have to. Or, like Infinite does, have super attacks that take away all your shields at once *and* 1/3 of your health, which feels steeply unfair. With shields, you are always doing okay in the medium and long term. Also, shields train the player to ignore getting hit most of the time, which becomes grating at the end when guys start hitting hard. (You trained the players for one thing but then gave them another!) I think shooters are much stronger experiences when it matters if you got hit. In shield games you get hit all the time, like flies buzzing. You can have a tight situation on the order of 10 seconds, but not on the order of 5 minutes, which matters more. Yeah. I think there is nothing wrong with 30 seconds of fun, if one doesn't forget 5 minutes of fun, 1 hour and 5 hours.

Clint Hocking wrote similarly about the shield mechanic for Edge - http://edge-online.com/features/from-doom-to-dishonored-considering-the-firstperson-shooters-various-waveforms/

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Maybe Elizabeth intended on "being right back", but the game's instructions are an extension of Booker's will who doesn't care if she's spent the last 17 years dancing alone in her creepy tower!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I was just mad for him at being a lazy bones and hitting the snooze button while she ran off.

 

I'm in the stage where I don't know if I like this or dislike BS:I. One thing that's currently killing me is the packrat nature of the game. I feel like it's watering down my experience that I'm constantly searching garbage cans and provisions barrels for pennies and snacks. I do enjoy the audio logs as always, but the gameyness of entering an area, turning around and seeing an obvious treasure laden dead-end is kind of disappointing. I should just stop picking stuff up but it's quite hard not to, its a compulsion I suffer from in games that I wish wasn't being tempted to this extent. I have no problem being a packrat in bethesda games where theres no rush, but the 'get the girl' storyline doesn't sensibly allow for searching every crevice of every area you visit.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ugh. I do not recall so much yelling in the actual novel. 

And where the hell is Toby (can't remember the characters name) will he just get relegated to set dressing. Yeah Gatsby Screaming at Tom, i recall it being slightly more restrained than that.

 

Wait... i like yelling. this is a good thing :yep:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Just a quick note on something chris mentioned:

 

While elizabeth no longer reacts to you shooting a guy or throwing birds in his face, she will however be shocked or even speak out whenever you do the melee takedown on an enemy, which is fitting because those are needlessly brutal and violent

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Casting Tobey Macguire as Carraway seems like such a misread of that character and the book that I don't know what point there is. The imagery will be crazy at least, feeling larger than life and remembered through a dream or something... except its the dream of Tobey Macguire, the Nick Carraway of people who think Nick Carraway is a fly on the wall empty vessel of a character.

Full Disclosure: The language used in this post may imply that I care about the Great Gatsby movie, but if so that is a mistaken impression.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Booo... you spoiled dieing in bioshock infinite for me. I haven't died yet, I did come very close a couple of times though. But now I know what might happen if I die. In 1999 mode you get perma death right, or can you simply respawn from the last checkpoint. I would rather have savegames and normal dieing (i.e. lose all progress since your last save), that's 1999 for me.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

i do think heath packs are a bit of a problem on their own but i don't know what would be a better solution than recharging health... maybe checkpoints could give you back your health, i dunno if that would be better

 

Something about health packs has always bothered me. To think that you can get shot in the head and find a health pack that magically removes the bullet from your brain so you can go about your business is absurd, although less absurd than regenerating health.

 

I would like to see a shooter that tackles enemy encounters in a fundamentally different way. Instead of walking into a room full of 15 guys and having them all pinpoint your location at once and start shooting your brain with a high level of accuracy, I would like this to play out a little more like it might in real life. Maybe instead of everyone spotting you after reaching an invisible threshold only enemies that have a line of sight spot you and there is some period of time before they are able to communicate your position to other enemies that haven't spotted you yet (sort of like the way Metal Gear Solid enemies work). This would give you an opportunity to strategically approach a room full of enemies and would force you to approach the situation in a more realistic way instead of just trying to run around like mad trying to score headshots. If you get shot in the head or chest even once, you die and maybe you can take a couple bullets in the limbs before you are effectively disabled.

 

I also think it wouldn't be too far of a stretch to have the enemies be less accurate and less aware of the situation than the player. If it was real life and a dude was infiltrating some base by himself, he likely has much more combat training than all the guards and henchman and would probably have better aim and better reaction time giving him an automatic advantage in one on one fights.

 

The more I read what I wrote the more it sounds like what MGS does, but I feel even that game doesn't quite get it right because of the amount of bullets you can take and the whole health pack thing.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

^ the last of us!? Maybe, I don't know a great deal about the game, but I know you can smash a guys face in with a brick, which is more realistic than a 'sky hook'. Hooray progress \o/

Full Disclosure: The language used in this post may imply that I care about the Great Gatsby movie, but if so that is a mistaken impression.

You love it you slag

I thought Tom was supposed to be a big sporting jock and I pictured Gatsby to be a very rigid medium build guy. The imagery of Gatsby physically overpowering Tom just seems crazy to me

http://www.harkavagrant.com/?id=259

That is fantastic. Old as balls

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think the No decision Is Bad can apply to Sim City, but I also think there are multiple ways it can apply. Deciding how you want to build your city, building a high tech high wealth techno-city is a valid choice but so is building all slums all YE time. Just because there's coal in your city plot doesn't mean you have to mine. At the same time, road or service placement could be objectively bad compared to other building decisions. It's a simulation, there's ALWAYS an optimal decision path

The advertising is saying you can build however you want, but that comes with the implication that it is beholden to the rules of the sim. Your goals are completely wide open.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I would like to see a shooter that tackles enemy encounters in a fundamentally different way. Instead of walking into a room full of 15 guys and having them all pinpoint your location at once and start shooting your brain with a high level of accuracy, I would like this to play out a little more like it might in real life. Maybe instead of everyone spotting you after reaching an invisible threshold only enemies that have a line of sight spot you and there is some period of time before they are able to communicate your position to other enemies that haven't spotted you yet (sort of like the way Metal Gear Solid enemies work). This would give you an opportunity to strategically approach a room full of enemies and would force you to approach the situation in a more realistic way instead of just trying to run around like mad trying to score headshots. If you get shot in the head or chest even once, you die and maybe you can take a couple bullets in the limbs before you are effectively disabled.

 

I also think it wouldn't be too far of a stretch to have the enemies be less accurate and less aware of the situation than the player. If it was real life and a dude was infiltrating some base by himself, he likely has much more combat training than all the guards and henchman and would probably have better aim and better reaction time giving him an automatic advantage in one on one fights.

 

Didn't Splinter Cell: Conviction do something like this?  I never played it, but I do know that it featured a "last know position" ghost that showed where the enemies think you are whenever you moved.  I would imagine this lets you set up one man flanking manouvers while they converge on the spot they last saw you.  However I also remember Chris talking about how he played that game with lots of pistol headshots so maybe that still happens.

 

As for Infinite, I haven't played it yet either thanks to a non-functioning desktop and a laptop that can't run it smoothly, so I've mostly been ignoring the story/plot discussions.  I do find it hilarious this game is somehow able to trick people into falsely remembering that they made/didn't make a choice when in fact they didn't/did (seems very meta given Bioshock's previous themes). 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Didn't Splinter Cell: Conviction do something like this? I never played it, but I do know that it featured a "last know position" ghost that showed where the enemies think you are whenever you moved. I would imagine this lets you set up one man flanking manouvers while they converge on the spot they last saw you. However I also remember Chris talking about how he played that game with lots of pistol headshots so maybe that still happens.

Yeah it did, the game would leave a white silhouette of your last seen position. in fact I'm pretty sure the new tomb raider did this, not the silhouette thing, just having enemies concentrating on your last seen position

FYI the new tomb raider is stellar, y'all should go play it

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Didn't Splinter Cell: Conviction do something like this?  I never played it, but I do know that it featured a "last know position" ghost that showed where the enemies think you are whenever you moved.  I would imagine this lets you set up one man flanking manouvers while they converge on the spot they last saw you.  However I also remember Chris talking about how he played that game with lots of pistol headshots so maybe that still happens.

 

As for Infinite, I haven't played it yet either thanks to a non-functioning desktop and a laptop that can't run it smoothly, so I've mostly been ignoring the story/plot discussions.  I do find it hilarious this game is somehow able to trick people into falsely remembering that they made/didn't make a choice when in fact they didn't/did (seems very meta given Bioshock's previous themes). 

 

 

yeah it had the last know position thing which made it easy to trick and flank people, but the whole game was undermined by the "Mark and Execute" function, it took away any stealth or tactics when all you had to do was stealth kill a few stragglers then mark targets (through walls) then run into the middle of the room full of the enemies the press execute and he would john woo headshot everybody in the room, the game kind of felt like i was playing 24 the game or something, which is kinda cool but not really what i was expecting from a splinter cell game, and i completed it in like 6 hours, it is the only game i have just returned to the shop (i'm generally a PC gamer and we don't trade in our games) because i was annoyed at it and i felt i had wasted my money, double agent is way is better if you actually want a stealth game

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this