Thrik

Metal Gear Solid 5: The Phantom Pain

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Yeah I get what you are saying (also addressed it briefly with my line about it being more akin to modern games) and I understand that.

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I've found the ending to be terrible. A twist that you could definitely see coming from miles away and a bunch of stuff half-resolved (which is even worse than unresolved). I still think it's one of my favourite games ever just because it plays so damn well, but imagining what this game could have been is driving me insane.

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I logged in last night to check things out. On the plus side, I was attacked precisely once in the last 3 weeks, and I won that invasion in a minute or two.

On the minus side, I took a look at my resources. On average, only about 10% of my total of the refined resources were actually on my base, with the other 90% on my FOB. I have about one of each weapon and vehicle on my base and barely any plants, all the rest are on the FOB. Besides the fact that makes them able to be stolen, it also means that you can't sell them, so now I have like 30 gun emplacements that I paid to fulton that are completely worthless to me.

Additionally, if the server goes offline, you have no access to any of that stuff which can end up sending you way into GMP debt, since money is stored up on the FOB as well. Rorie on Giant Bomb told a story of logging in when the servers were in maintenance and being 2 million GMP in debt immediately and starting to lose guys due to poor morale.

I'm so glad I beat this before they rolled out this additional BS. I don't know how I would have researched anything cool with no way to sell appreciable amounts of resources for GMP.

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Yeah the FOB stuff is just absolute bullshit. Like all of it. It's a nice idea but when my resources are literally unavailable to me if I'm not online, you can go fuck yourself.

 

Fortunately, as I said earlier, I was lucky enough to never be invaded. So even though I only really started playing in earnest after the patch that changed shit, it didn't affect me much. But christ. What a bad thing.

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I had no intention of playing this game for awhile since I've got a bunch of other games in the hopper, but one of my bosses at work gave me an unopened copy of the day one edition of MGSV since he had a shipping delay and bought a second copy at the store so he didn't have to wait.

 

The collector in me can't resist someone just giving me a free game to add to my collection but the completionist in me weeps for my backlog. I have the worst combination of personality traits when it comes to obtaining games and then having the overwhelming urge to complete all of them. I suppose this is a game I need to play though based on literally every testimonial I've heard from every person that's touched it.

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While we are all generally pretty harsh on the weak ending, keep in mind that it's bad by Metal Gear standards. It's still a fantastic game that is absolutely worth playing, especially since every open world game in the future is no doubt gonna take a page from this.

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Finally "finished" the game. Can't imagine caring about the ending at all. It was just fine and the rule still stands--the best MGS games are the odd-numbered ones.

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Wait since when they're great! Especially 2.

And 4!

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53214 is correct, as mentioned

 

I'm done with this game. As much as I enjoyed it, getting rid of it made me feel free. 

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1=2=3=4>pw>>>>>V

Get at me nerds.

 

---

 

EDIT TIME!

 

All right I'm no longer on the bus using my phone, so I'll further clarify my rankings (which are of course the only correct rankings!).

 

V is by far the worst Metal Gear Solid game, but it's also at the same time the better video game.

 

MGSV utterly fails at continuing the tradition of having a cohesive (and definitely ridiculous!) story that 1, 2, 3, and 4 set. Each game in the series is capable of standing on its own without any reliance on future games, barring the post-credits Ocelot-conversations. Each sequel builds on the previous games in the series. You could also say maybe they retcon some stuff, but it's usually stuff that's vague enough as to not be important UNTIL they "retconned" it.

 

Some people don't like the story, and that's fine, but this is how the games have progressed, and this is where V fails. It's utterly and completely unfinished. This is obvious to everyone, even the people who otherwise don't give a shit about the story. Whether that's Kojima's fault alone or Konami's fault for bailing on Kojima or some combination thereof, it's whatever, it is what it is, but it's undeniably resulted in a rushed product. V, unlike every game prior is forced to rely on future games. This is made all the more painful because it's unlikely we'll ever even get a future game, given all the drama and bullshit surrounding development.

 

But!

 

V is undeniably the most modern and open and arguably polished of the MGS games, which means that people who don't like previous games' gameplay can jump right in and enjoy the fuck out of it. It loses a lot of the, um, what's the word, the... purity? That's too strong, but I dunno. The purity of the earlier games' simple and straightforward gameplay. That's sacrificed for making a real sandbox of a game with many many many different ways to approach every goal. Which is fine, but also a little sad. MGSV is really really really goddamn fun, regardless of how I feel about the gameplay. I'd say in terms of gameplay they're almost incomparable, but whatever.

 

Also there's that indie game I can't remember the name of that looks to play almost exactly like MGS1, except with a more modern feel. And includes a level editor, I think?! God I wish I could remember the name of it. It looked good.

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I skipped the ending cut scene in MGS1. The only reason it's higher than 4 is because I literally remember nothing from 4 other than the eggs.

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Story wise I liked 4 the most cause it actually felt like things were coming together, and 2 the least cause that's the game where MGS's weird meta plot blew up.

 

Mechanics wise IMO V isn't any more complex... just that absence of clearly outlined vision cone just removed the explicitly clear UI from previous games.  Instead of that near-binary information of stealth (Twig I think this is perhaps what you were looking for when you said purity (purity control, x-file, the memes, omg)), V gave us more capable control and camera (intentionally not using word 'better' here since that's up to the end user, but V almost unarguably lets you perform same tasks easier).  So the game appears more complex from 'game' view because state of being are not outlined to the user, but the working fundamentals remain on roughly equal complexity (instead of 2d vision cone it's now a 3d cone for front and small sphere for sound).  But because it controls easier, I like it the best mechanically.

 

Best MGS game is Zone of Enders.

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V has an emphasis on height that earlier games don't have.

V has more intelligent guards that actually group up and search together and react to sounds and movement in more ways than see-or-don't-see.

V has more angles of attack in nearly every single situation (not just in height but in direction).

V has a much larger variety of tools than earlier games have, and is not just restricted to weapons and card keys.

V has your buddy pals that can, if you allow them, do a lot of the work for you while you just play spotter.

V has base-building and weapon-crafting and vehicles and a goddamn horse.

 

I could go on with more and more specific examples, but eh.

 

It is so, so, so wrong to insist that MGSV isn't more complex than earlier games. Absolutely bonkers. This isn't just "oh i feel like it has more stuff", it's a bullet-point, quantifiable, objective thing.

 

I mean, hell, especially if you compare it to MGS1, which is a top-down 2D game for the vast majority of the time, to say that MGSV is just a version of that game that's made more modern just doesn't fly. There's nothing about MGSV that doesn't have more depth and more ridiculous bullshit than MGS1. MGS1 didn't even HAVE camera controls (for the most part).

 

And that's not even talking about the world and game structure which is way more straightforward in the first game (infiltrate and follow instructions) than this game (go to chopper, pick mission, get off chopper, perform tasks, also perform optional tasks if you want, also go for s-rank if you want, and then when you're done leave by chopper or by leaving hotzone or by fultoning yourself on a damn storage container). WAYYYY more complex.

 

MGS4 comes closest to MGSV's level of complexity, but even then that game is mostly just a linear rollercoaster ride. It's definitely not the sandbox the MGSV has built for you to play in.

 

I'm definitely not just talking about the binary stealth when I use the word purity. The way aiming works in MGS1 is just "hold the button in the general direction" and it auto-aims. The only exception being the Nikita and the Stinger, which have their own extremely straightforward mechanics. It's extremely tight, and uncrowded. You release a game that plays like that today, but with better controls (notably analog stick support!) and man it'd be so easy to pick up.

 

Just, conceptually, think about it from the perspective of someone who's never played games before. MGS1 vs MGSV. Which one's easier to explain? The games got more complicated over the years, absolutely, and that even includes comparing MGS4 to MGSV.

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What I loved about V, is that it didn't have the self absorbed, pretentious, wankery found in the story of 1. Nuclear weapons are bad. Yup, thanks. You don't need a 60 minute long cut scene to say something I summed up in 4 words.

It also has less of the pseudoscientific mumbo jumbo. VChPs (can't be bothered to spoiler 3 words) are mumboy-jumboy, but no where near as bad as the DNA and genetics jibber jabber throughout 1. 

 

It stripped out what I disliked about MGS, put in a bunch of new awesome stuff, and made it play like foie gras.

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V has an emphasis on height that earlier games don't have.

V has more intelligent guards that actually group up and search together and react to sounds and movement in more ways than see-or-don't-see.

V has more angles of attack in nearly every single situation (not just in height but in direction).

V has a much larger variety of tools than earlier games have, and is not just restricted to weapons and card keys.

V has your buddy pals that can, if you allow them, do a lot of the work for you while you just play spotter.

V has base-building and weapon-crafting and vehicles and a goddamn horse.

 

I could go on with more and more specific examples, but eh.

 

It is so, so, so wrong to insist that MGSV isn't more complex than earlier games. Absolutely bonkers. This isn't just "oh i feel like it has more stuff", it's a bullet-point, quantifiable, objective thing.

 

I mean, hell, especially if you compare it to MGS1, which is a top-down 2D game for the vast majority of the time, to say that MGSV is just a version of that game that's made more modern just doesn't fly. There's nothing about MGSV that doesn't have more depth and more ridiculous bullshit than MGS1. MGS1 didn't even HAVE camera controls (for the most part).

 

MGS4 comes closest to MGSV's level of complexity, but even then that game is mostly just a linear rollercoaster ride. It's definitely not the sandbox the MGSV has built for you to play in.

 

I'm definitely not just talking about the binary stealth when I use the word purity. The way aiming works in MGS1 is just "hold the button in the general direction" and it auto-aims. The only exception being the Nikita and the Stinger, which have their own extremely straightforward mechanics. It's extremely tight, and uncrowded. You release a game that plays like that today, but with better controls (notably analog stick support!) and man it'd be so easy to pick up.

 

Just, conceptually, think about it from the perspective of someone who's never played games before. MGS1 vs MGSV. Which one's easier to explain? The games got more complicated over the years, absolutely, and that even includes comparing MGS4 to MGSV.

 

Height doesn't really matter though.  It's just 3d cone with distance check.  No different from being on left or right side of someone's vision.

 

Intelligent guards doesn't really change how you behave though?  Previous games achieved giving players decisions by level design and patrol route, while V does this more dynamically by having somewhat randomly distributed guards filling up the gap, but the actual game puzzle (stay out of line of sight) is the same.

 

Which gives the game depth.  I don't see how this qualifies as complexity.  It's like saying Go is a complicated game... it's a deep game based on simple rule.  At least that's how I interpret this.

 

Outside of vehicles (which just breaks the game if player use it), what is actually new?  There are lot of guns in the game but they all fall into non lethal, silenced, loud and explosives.  Instead of chaft (which is removed to artillery support wtf lol) we get smoke but smoke is so... intuitive in concept that it hardly seems more complex?  I guess there is that weather thing, but in 4 I had to regularly take pain medicine or Snake would yelp :x

 

Doesn't automated buddy pals kinda remove complexity? ;P

 

Base building and weapon crafting, sure but I thought we were largely talking about actual moment to moment stealth gameplay?  Cause game as a whole yeah no doubt there is just so much more stuff here.

 

Hmm but interesting point on the last one.  I guess I kinda got too hung up on comparing V to 4 and 3.  1 is undeniably less complex sure.  But I think that comparative distance diminishes rapidly from 2 and on?

 

Anyways, Entirety of V's gameplay boils down to distance check and maybe that's why I think it's so simple?  Wanna fulton someone awake?  Check see if anyone's within 60m.  Asleep?  40m.  Wormhole?  30m.  Guard in front and you are standing?  80m.  crouching? etc.  And putting on stealth suit brings back the hard binary state of guard-is-looking-or-not.  Basically I just found moment to moment stealth aspect and my decision making related to that aspect really binary (tag ppl, check distance, tag ppl, check distance) hence I don't see it being that complex.

 

But yeah, game as a whole is whole lot more complex for sure.

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I think that the main issue here is that people are conflating ease-of-play and familiarity with simplicity.

 

It's all familiar to us because we are gamers and we see this shit everywhere. But to a brand new person, just look at it objectively. Which game is easier to explain?

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MGS is still mechanically dense, especially for its time. I don't think that Phantom Pain is more demanding of today's players than MGS was 17 years ago. Plugging controllers into port 2. Looking on the back of the game's physical case for a crucial hint. Temperature-sensitive passkeys for Rex. Shipping yourself around with multiple cardboard boxes.

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