Metal Gear Solid 5: The Phantom Pain

[Reyturner]

The ending cutscene is at least twice that length, and Master Miller's rampant misogyny is frankly repugnant.

That's the gob I'm talking about...

[Justin Leego]

I find that choice particularly interesting. Isn't Miller supposed to be bicultural? Is he known to represent anything particular ideals, traits, or systems of thought?

[Thrik]

Perhaps Miller's untimely and more or less pointless death in Metal Gear Solid 1 was a bit more justified than we thought. I don't mind arse holes being depicted, but it is nice when a semblance of karma is maintained. The shockingly racist Uncle Ruckus character in The Boondocks is a great example of this.

 

Then again, fiction can be a lot more interesting and unpredictable when poetic justice is thrown out of the window.

[Salacious Snake]

You can skip the cutscenes. On ps4 it's the lower left corner of the touchpad.

[melmer]

oh the lower left corner of the toooooooooooooouuuuuuuuuuccccccchhhhhhh paaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaddddddd

 

If a game doesn't explicitly show that the touchpad has a function in a game, i don't think i'll ever think to try it and see what it does as my brain is hard wired to controllers without a touch pad. Ass creed was good as it kept popping up as an one screen prompt/hint

 

But there was no such prompts for Dont Starve which i played for about 3 hours without ever realising there was a map.

 

Did a quick google, case in point

 

[Reyturner]

I find that choice particularly interesting. Isn't Miller supposed to be bicultural? Is he known to represent anything particular ideals, traits, or systems of thought?

Miller is angry at Paz for plot reasons. The misogyny that comes out of Miller is like the misogyny that comes out of the thugs in Arkham City directed at Cat Woman; he's angry at a woman so he's spitting gendered insults at her. It's thoughtless and reflects more on the author than the character.

[Architecture]

Miller is angry at Paz for plot reasons. The misogyny that comes out of Miller is like the misogyny that comes out of the thugs in Arkham City directed at Cat Woman; he's angry at a woman so he's spitting gendered insults at her. It's thoughtless and reflects more on the author than the character.

It's funny because I almost mentioned how much it reminded me of Arkham City. Wonderful game, but Catwoman being called a bitch incessantly made me sick to my stomach. It's just unnecessary, regardless of how "authentic" its use might appear.

[Twig]

It's funny because I almost mentioned how much it reminded me of Arkham City. Wonderful game, but Catwoman being called a bitch incessantly made me sick to my stomach. It's just unnecessary, regardless of how "authentic" its use might appear.

I think it's authentic in ways far beyond appearance! But I agree that it's gross, and maybe if people stopped using it just because it's true to life it would maybe just maybe ever so slowly stop being true to life. Especially in a Batman game, there's no real reason to be true to life. It's a game about a guy running around in a cape and underwear, ferchrissake.

 

Anyway uh what am I doing in a Metal Gear Solid thread? This is awkward... Sorry.

[Thrik]

That's a topic in its own right really. I personally think that some can be very over-sensitive to gender-based terms, as if the use of them automatically makes someone a misandrist or misogynist. While this is certainly possible, I think that in the vast majority of cases it isn't actually so. It might be not be ideal, but many terms — at least in colloquial English — tend to have evolved to be directed more towards one gender or another. Men often receive things like 'dickhead', 'bastard', 'arse hole', 'wanker'; women are treated to 'bitch', 'slag', etc.

 

There are countless examples of terms where as a native English speaker it feels more correct to use it for a certain gender, much like you'd automatically associate 'sweet ride' with a car despite it being equally applicable to a bike, boat, or plane. Why is this? Because language spreads in such way that it's intertwined with context and convention, not beliefs.

 

What's interesting is that I use such terms quite interchangably. I can and do (somewhat jokingly) use terms like 'bitch' and 'twat' in reference to men during everyday conversation. When I do use it in reference to a woman though, singling me out as a misogynist seems inappropriate. The only possible reason to criticise me is because I'm perpetuating terms that should be considered as taboo as a racist slur — but is that really a suitable level to take this to?

 

Whether you agree with it or not, use of such terms is very widespread and in many cases has no connotations of hatred for women or any of that nonsense. Automatically throwing words like 'misogynist' into the ring just because a fictional character uses the term for a female dog to refer to a female human is excessive. It doesn't imply any particular beliefs on the part of the writer, and it reflects real-world usage that is in itself not something that I consider particularly obscene.

 

Reading too much into use of such words is unhealthy, and does no more to aid better treatment of men or women than chastising someone for checking out a girl's posterior or a guy's abs. Such over-sensitivity serves to do nothing but irritate and polarise people, and I'd be happy to see less of it.

[Architecture]

I don't have time for a full takedown of what you've written, but suffice it to say that I disagree with everything you're asserting and find your line of thought to be poisonous. Your usage of bitch is misogynist in both examples you've posted--there's no difference between emasculating men through its use and slinging it as a gendered insult towards women.

 

You're far removed from reality if you think that your use of these pejoratives is gender-neutral.

[Thrik]

What would you say is a more appropriate pejorative to use in any or all of the contexts discussed on this page then? Or are pejoratives in and of themselves — in seriousness or not — completely repugnant to you?

[Salacious Snake]

Calling a man a bitch is misogyny, because the message is 'you are like a woman,' with the implication that being like a woman is a form of inferiority, because women are understood to be inferior. See also: use of the word gay as a derogatory term.

Edit: I'm kinda squirming trying to figure out my feelings on Kaz... It's valid to use all sorts of egregious speech in fiction when you're writing a character who is a jerk, but MGS is so fundamentally stupid that I'm having a hard time defending it as fiction.

[mikemariano]

Sorry to derail this thread, but I wanted to respond to twmac above—I am sure this game will have well-implemented, interesting mechanics.  But I fear that as a player you'd barely get to use them.

 

I only ever watched part of a Let's Play of Metal Gear Solid 4, and it didn't go more than three minutes without a cutscene or some sort of interruption.  To me, it made me realize I would not enjoy this game.  Playing a game riddled with cutscenes is like not playing a game at all, even if the game would be excellent if I got to play it unimpeded.

[Salacious Snake]

Ground Zeroes is nothing like 4 in that regard, and I hope that is indicative of what The Phantom Pain will be like. Peace Walker was a major step in the direction of giving you more time playing with your Big Boss action figure and less jibber jabber.

In Ground Zeroes, you're able to run around and actually play the game during radio conversations; that alone is a major change from the 'codec' sequences of past games.

[Thrik]

You raise an interesting point with the 'gay' example. I've always avoided using that as an insult because it does indeed paint being gay as a pejorative in and of itself. Personally, I don't see 'bitch' as being loaded in the same way, but I guess that could just be a perception issue of mine. When I call someone a bitch, there's no intent of saying 'like a woman' — to me, it's a generic insult no different to 'idiot', 'ass', or 'scum-sucking fiend'.

 

What you're saying is that certain words like that are as loaded as a racist slur, and that uttering them is reprehensible (more or less) regardless of context. I'm not saying that I necessarily disagree with that if that's genuinely how it's viewed, but what I'm saying is that it isn't how I've ever viewed it, and rushing to label someone a misogynist for using them is exhibiting a very distorted sense of righteousness. The fact that Architecture saw fit to call me poisonous despite knowing very little about my true beliefs regarding women (or even my gender, most likely) is an example of this.

 

I guess I muddied my original point somewhat, but what I was getting at is that a lot of people use such words without there being an ounce of misogynistic intent behind it. 'Cunt' and 'twat' — along with 'arse' and 'dick', I should add — are great examples of words that even somebody as detached from reality as I know are loaded to the gills in some parts of the world, yet in the UK are as commonplace as 'idiot' or 'moron' and are truly gender-neutral, used by guys and girls alike across the board. Yet utter one of those in front of people from certain regions and you attract often-hurtful judgemental comments.

 

If I am objectively and unanimously agreed to be part of the problem, I guess I can't argue with that and I'm sorry. 

[Salacious Snake]

. When I call someone a bitch, there's no intent of saying 'like a woman' — to me, it's a generic insult no different to 'idiot', 'ass', or 'scum-sucking fiend'.

 

... rushing to label someone a misogynist for using them is exhibiting a very distorted sense of righteousness. The fact that Architecture saw fit to call me poisonous despite knowing very little about my true beliefs regarding women (or even my gender, most likely) is an example of this.

 

My position is certainly not that you are a misogynist. I think the pervasiveness of such terms demonstrates an underlying (to borrow a term from Architecture) poisonous element deeply embedded in our culture and language. I believe it's a good thing to think about, and doing so has led to me reevaluating the way I speak.

[Thrik]

Ground Zeroes is nothing like 4 in that regard, and I hope that is indicative of what The Phantom Pain will be like. Peace Walker was a major step in the direction of giving you more time playing with your Big Boss action figure and less jibber jabber.

In Ground Zeroes, you're able to run around and actually play the game during radio conversations; that alone is a major change from the 'codec' sequences of past games.

 

It's interesting that MGS4 became so like that, as I feel that MGS3 found an excellent balance between gameplay and cutscenes. I still enjoyed it overall, but I'd much prefer to see a balance more like MGS3 in The Phantom Pain. One major weakness that MGS3 did have was ultra-long codec sequences; while I love MGS's codecs and the fact that you can trigger non-essential conversations at will, it does feel like they get in the way of the ongoing action at times.

 

That's actually a really big change to the formula. Is there a way for the action to be suspended while conversations happen? I'm thinking about how you could take time to talk to your backup for advice and tips during regular gameplay and boss segments in the previous games — it was nice being able to exit the pressures of the intense stealth for that. Can you even trigger conversations and/or choose who with for that matter?

[Salacious Snake]

Nope! No pausing. The game doesn't even pause when you look over mission info files or your map or fuck with your inventory.

You can trigger a conversation about a particular thing by looking at it with your binoculars and hitting the radio button, but you're always talking to your mission handler. You can also hit it whenever to get a reminder of what you're supposed to be doing.

[Architecture]

I'm not arguing that misogyny is your intent, but it certainly is a byproduct of your continued use of such insults. I'm a foul-mouthed person and salty language doesn't generally raise my hackles, but I've got a lot of female friends who've brought up the use of gender-specific pejoratives as unnecessary, even when you're upset and ready to let hurtful phrases fly. I certainly understand your trepidation when it comes to censoring speech, and how slippery the slope becomes once you start ruling out specific insults due to a perceived heightened crassness.

 

The reason I pointed this out in the first place is because when it happens in Ground Zeroes, the player is given next to no context for Master Miller's outburst. You could have replaced the word bitch with a number of other expletives and the scene would have lost none of its meaning.

[Thrik]

Nope! No pausing. The game doesn't even pause when you look over mission info files or your map or fuck with your inventory.

You can trigger a conversation about a particular thing by looking at it with your binoculars and hitting the radio button, but you're always talking to your mission handler. You can also hit it whenever to get a reminder of what you're supposed to be doing.

 

Hmm, bloody hell. I'm not sure if I completely like the sound of this! I mean, there are certain conventions you just expect from a Metal Gear Solid game.

 

I guess the open world nature of these games aids this concept somewhat, as you'll have to actually retreat to somewhere quiet to enjoy some conversation — this will presumably be much more significant in The Phantom Pain's vastly expanded world. It's great that what you look at it affects what's spoken about, potentially leading to all sorts of incidental yet enjoyable dialogue. I can imagine this being really immersive (a big part of MGS for me), particularly in remote locations.

 

MGS3's animal system would have worked a lot better if you could have looked at the animals and spoken to your specialist about them, rather than having to pick them up and her just discuss whatever new animals you've collected. Also, codec conversations have always been affected by where precisely you are (sometimes right down to the metre) so having more control over that will be cool.

 

I do hope that The Phantom Pain restores the concept of multiple conversation contacts, although I guess that could get really difficult to keep manageable. Anyway, interesting stuff.

[Reyturner]

If I am objectively and unanimously agreed to be part of the problem, I guess I can't argue with that and I'm sorry.

Don't just write yourself off. You recognize how harmful racist and homophobic slurs are, even in jest. It isn't exactly a quantum leap to extend that same consideration to sexism.

Calling out the use of normalized slurs, be they racist, homophobic or sexist, is important specifically because they've become so normal. That doesn't mean they don't still get used in their original context (often in conjunction with violence).

Edit: sweet, new page

[prettyunsmart]

Also, there's a difference between someone saying "that thing you said was [racist/sexist/transphobic]" and saying "you are [racist/sexist/transphobic]." The former can be a good way to start a discussion about the ways language, intentionally or not, can reinforce problematic power dynamics. The latter just leads to people feeling insulted and shutting down discussion. It seems like the discussion here is more focused on the words/phrasing rather than Thrik the person, which I think is cool.

[bkbroiler]

I have a dumb and very unserious question, but from watching the Giant Bomb quicklook and the end cutscene (gross), it looks like everything is done in one "shot," including the gameplay, which the cutscenes transition seamlessly into. Is this the case? That's kind of a cool idea - the whole came being one continuous shot from beginning to end, with your gameplay being the middle section.

[Bjorn]

I'll just say that my perception of certain, particularly gendered, words changed radically raising a daughter.  Most of them I used without a second thought before, even though I had women I respected in my life explain why the use of them was problematic.  I was being stubborn and dense.

 

But having witnessed those words used against my daughter solely because she is female, and the intent was to get under her skin with them, radically changed how I view and use them.  Mostly this has come from her playing on Xbox Live.  I've actually sat with her headphones on and listened to the shit that the vermin on there spit out.  99 percent of the time, she just has any strangers on mute, but occasionally we turned it on just to see how bad it is, and to have a conversation about sexism and misogyny in gaming.  I also know that she's had people at school use those types of words towards her, and even more so has seen them used against other girls. 

 

I swear like a sailor, and I still fuckup now and again and use something like bitch absentmindedly, but not has much.  And I'm much more cognizant of it. 

 

Those words have power, even when they are used in a non-gendered way.  It's a kind of power that it's very difficult for a man to understand.  I only have the window into that because of my daughter. 

[Salacious Snake]

I have a dumb and very unserious question, but from watching the Giant Bomb quicklook and the end cutscene (gross), it looks like everything is done in one "shot," including the gameplay, which the cutscenes transition seamlessly into. .

Yeah, I can't think of any spots where it breaks. Pretty nifty.