Corelli Posted March 21, 2013 The discussion about the granularity of simulation in games like Sim City and Spacebase (DF, etc.) is super interesting to me. Especially that Relic example. How useful are these mechanics if they're not communicated well to the player? It's a tough question, because some of the fun for me in those games is discovering that a simulation is controlling something that you thought (for lack of a better term) was scripted or baked in, like the first time I realized my dwarves in DF were making art about things that was happening during my game. Edit: Holy shit I did the Aladdin carpet thing too! I couldn't wear my glasses while wearing the headset so I couldn't even see anything that was going on. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sean Posted March 21, 2013 I have a question for Sean - you told Jake that the behavior isn't about picking on others, it's an aggressive communication. It kinda bothered me when you said that because you made it sound like it's the norm and completely acceptable. The question is, does it have to be aggressive? Which is a silly question but I'm asking it to maybe get some perspective about your own investment in the game. You recognize you're starting to bite into the negative behavior that surrounds these games, and instead of questioning it by any means you seemed to be justifying it. I was more responding to Jake jumping all over competitive game players as assholes and wasn't clear in delineating that there is an intensity/communication style that can come out in a really competitive match that doesn't mean anybody is picking on anybody. Like, if I see Pudge on the map, hiding in the trees in our jungle for let's say .1 seconds. Like he blips on the mini map and then goes away, into the fog of war, I know I have about two seconds before he hooks my buddy Pierre and kills him. So if my intensity spikes and I say "FUCK GET BACK," I'm not saying "Pierre, you dumb piece of shit, why are you standing there." My brain is just firing off a frightened warning within a game that produces a lot of high-anxiety moments. I took umbrage (and this really seeded in MANY conversations I've had with Jake about this) with the broad statement that is essentially "You guys are bullies; why can't you be nice," which just feels uninformed. The guys I play DOTA with are some of my closest friends. If I ever felt like I was belittling anyone or someone logged off and felt guilty/bad/whatever because of anything that came out of my or one of our friends' mouths, I'd probably quit the game forever. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sean Posted March 21, 2013 I'd probably quit the game forever. Which is a lie. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sean Posted March 21, 2013 Also, I should say I would never communicate with a new player or a stranger the way I do with my friends. There is a lot of "oh, you're dead again, well it's ok." So I guess the real issue is Jake hearing me play with Pierre, Nick Herman, Finol and whoever and then going "wow I would never play that game with you guys," as if we're some sort of despicable heathens. DOTA, like any game, video or otherwise, that is about communication and you do the best when you're communicating effectively, whatever the tone is. It also means being sensitive to the personal listening styles of your friends and teammates; so if your buddy yelling FUCKFUCKFUCKWHATAREYOUDOOOOOING at you doesn't work for you, then you have a talk with your pal that starts with "Hey man, that doesn't work for me," and he or she needs to take that heart or you don't play with those people. I guess I also take issue with the labeling of a game or genre based on people's fears about the play experience. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Feeona Posted March 21, 2013 I'm interested in this 'mentor' program that was mentioned, I was unsure if it was with Dota though? I loved that game, loved the compeditive nature however, I had not played as long as my friends and often felt like I let them down. I remember game after game feeling like utter crap if I 'fed' the other team and became fustrated at my own indeptitude, I'd lose my temper resorting to pacing around the house in order to calm down. In no other game I have felt like this so it was very interesting to hear this week how it makes others feel. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Cleinhun Posted March 21, 2013 I took umbrage (and this really seeded in MANY conversations I've had with Jake about this) with the broad statement that is essentially "You guys are bullies; why can't you be nice," which just feels uninformed. The guys I play DOTA with are some of my closest friends. If I ever felt like I was belittling anyone or someone logged off and felt guilty/bad/whatever because of anything that came out of my or one of our friends' mouths, I'd probably quit the game forever. I've noticed that occasionally you'll see people talk about games that "ruin friendships", games like Neptunes Pride or the board game Diplomacy. I've never come across this problem, so I brought it up to a friend of mine. He came to the conclusion that if playing games with your friends makes you hate each other, you probably weren't very good friends to begin with. Getting mad at your friends is fun if it's in a context where it's understood that it's not meant to be taken personally. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Twig Posted March 21, 2013 And hearing you guys talk about the new SimCity has me thinking that it sounds pretty effortless, that you cannot 'fail,' that you will always be rewarded with a big bustlin' city. Man what I wish. I'm the worst at these games. ): Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
elmuerte Posted March 21, 2013 damn... phone battery died about 5 minutes before the end right before the sim city 2000 manual quote; and then I had to wait till I get home Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Twig Posted March 21, 2013 Also, I should say I would never communicate with a new player or a stranger the way I do with my friends. There is a lot of "oh, you're dead again, well it's ok." So I guess the real issue is Jake hearing me play with Pierre, Nick Herman, Finol and whoever and then going "wow I would never play that game with you guys," as if we're some sort of despicable heathens. Yeah, this, absolutely! I am a shithead when I'm playing with my friends... but, then, we all are. When I play with someone I don't know, or someone who's new/whose skill level I don't yet know, I'm pretty calm and forgiving. "Try this next time!", etc. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Flynn Posted March 21, 2013 Also, I should say I would never communicate with a new player or a stranger the way I do with my friends. There is a lot of "oh, you're dead again, well it's ok." So I guess the real issue is Jake hearing me play with Pierre, Nick Herman, Finol and whoever and then going "wow I would never play that game with you guys," as if we're some sort of despicable heathens. DOTA, like any game, video or otherwise, that is about communication and you do the best when you're communicating effectively, whatever the tone is. It also means being sensitive to the personal listening styles of your friends and teammates; so if your buddy yelling FUCKFUCKFUCKWHATAREYOUDOOOOOING at you doesn't work for you, then you have a talk with your pal that starts with "Hey man, that doesn't work for me," and he or she needs to take that heart or you don't play with those people. I guess I also take issue with the labeling of a game or genre based on people's fears about the play experience. Agreed. I also find some joy in acknowledging the stakes of a particular moment in a match I'm putting so much effort into, and occasionally this comes out as a FUCKFUCKFUUUUUCKRUNRUNRUNRUN or whatever. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
melmer Posted March 21, 2013 This is how I will see Sean from now on Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lu Posted March 21, 2013 That is... Wow. I have no words. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sclpls Posted March 21, 2013 I think what was missing from the talk about DOTA 2, LoL, etc. with regards to it being a competitive game just like sports is that with sports there is at least the concept of sportsman-like behavior, and whether or not athletes actually live up to that ideal it is at least this idea out there in the world that is somewhat enforced. It is not clear to me that this is something that Riot or Valve actually care about though, and I think that is unfortunate. I enjoy playing games competitively, and don't mind tense or aggressive communication, but when that spills over to verbal harrassment it generally stops being fun, and that was my brief experience playing LoL. Part of what I like about SC2 is that even though that is a super competitve, tense game I don't typically experience any obnoxious behavior from my opponents. Now there is probably a strong argument that much of that is because that there are so many actions that need to be performed at any given moment in SC2 that taking the time to insult your opponent risks putting you at a disadvantage, but I do wish there were more opportunities to play competitive multiplayer games without having to deal with so much off putting social behavior. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Twig Posted March 21, 2013 It is not clear to me that this is something that Riot or Valve actually care about though, and I think that is unfortunate. They absolutely care. Riot has the community tribunal thing and actively bans accounts that repeatedly offend. I think Valve isn't quite as proactive with actually banning people, but they try to promote sportsmanship with the commendation/report system. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Flynn Posted March 21, 2013 This is how I will see Sean from now on Dota/League/Starcraft is nothing at all like that. Even when Navi is playing a match worth 2 million dollars. Very different scenes I guess. Hell, it's a minor scandal if a starcraft player quits a match without a 'good game' at the end. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
melmer Posted March 21, 2013 #TeamOculus Like Nicks flight stick, I can see the oculus rift being a bit of hardware you get out for special occasions, when you're piloting a spaceship in star citizen or exploring the island in the witness. I'm super excited at the prospect of the oculus rift, but none of that prospect involves holding a gun. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sean Posted March 21, 2013 I think what was missing from the talk about DOTA 2, LoL, etc. with regards to it being a competitive game just like sports is that with sports there is at least the concept of sportsman-like behavior, and whether or not athletes actually live up to that ideal it is at least this idea out there in the world that is somewhat enforced. It is not clear to me that this is something that Riot or Valve actually care about though, and I think that is unfortunate. I enjoy playing games competitively, and don't mind tense or aggressive communication, but when that spills over to verbal harrassment it generally stops being fun, and that was my brief experience playing LoL. Part of what I like about SC2 is that even though that is a super competitve, tense game I don't typically experience any obnoxious behavior from my opponents. Now there is probably a strong argument that much of that is because that there are so many actions that need to be performed at any given moment in SC2 that taking the time to insult your opponent risks putting you at a disadvantage, but I do wish there were more opportunities to play competitive multiplayer games without having to deal with so much off putting social behavior. This is a good point -- I wouldn't say anyone I play with regularly is unsportsmanlike at all, despite any energy they bring to the game. I also think Valve cares about this, having talked to members of the team quite a bit. They regularly move thousands of players to the low-priority queue where they will wait extra-long to connect to a server and once there can only play with other low-priority players. They've also instituted a decent commendation/report system that I know is used extensively on their end. In terms of DOTA it's also important to remember that this game is still in very active development so I don't think the ship has sailed on more formalized, design-driven solutions to the "community issues." Gabe is on the record having said that he believes someone who is mentoring, helping their team enjoy the game, and raising the "fun" level of a match (which you can now rate your matches from "horrible" to "awesome" at the end, btw) should somehow be rewarded within the game while trolls and douchebags should have to pay out the ear to get in. Like most problems, I think Valve is trying to solve this purely through well-designed engineering, so I'm skeptical about where they'll end up, but I think their hearts are in the right place. I'd also like to try to assuage the end of your comment here on the forums -- I believe there are currently PLENTY of opportunities to play with good people (you're on these boards for instance!) and the game can be super rewarding when you're playing with a regular group of online friends. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gormongous Posted March 21, 2013 I love what you're saying, Sean, because so few people stick up for an online community's less than total friendliness, but a lot of your points are straying dangerously close to "It's fun when you play with friends," which is something of a universal truth with games and doesn't entirely address concerns over a culture composed of perfectly nice people with good intentions interacting to form a toxic gestalt. There are reasons I don't play LoMa games, and not all of them involve a lack of free time or the odd hours I keep. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sean Posted March 21, 2013 I love what you're saying, Sean, because so few people stick up for an online community's less than total friendliness, but a lot of your points are straying dangerously close to "It's fun when you play with friends," which is something of a universal truth with games and doesn't entirely address concerns over a culture composed of perfectly nice people with good intentions interacting to form a toxic gestalt. There are reasons I don't play LoMa games, and not all of them involve a lack of free time or the odd hours I keep. HOW dangerously? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sean Posted March 21, 2013 I play about 50/50 solo-public matches vs friends matches. I use the mute button (frequently) when I don't like someone. Which makes people who ARE great teammates despite being strangers on the internet all the more refreshing. I also think there multiple points here: one is the tone of a player communication, friends or otherwise, in a LOMA match and the other is the tenor and attitude of the player community as a whole, which is an issue across the entire industry and not at all unique to LOMAs. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Laxan Posted March 21, 2013 #TeamOculus Like Nicks flight stick, I can see the oculus rift being a bit of hardware you get out for special occasions, when your piloting a spaceship in star citizen or exploring the island in the witness. I'm super excited at the prospect of the oculus rift, but none of that prospect involves holding a gun. Remember the Novint Falcon? Portal with the Oculus Rift and Novint Falcon support would probably be cool, but also a total barf-fest. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
elmuerte Posted March 21, 2013 This is how I will see Sean from now on Holy fucking shit ... I'm quite a "potty mouth" at work sometimes. (I get rather "disgruntled" when I'm under "legitimate" stress and some things are not behaving) But this beats everything. If I look back at my active UT'99 and Rainbow Six years... I was calm as shit. "Shit, I died. Better luck next time" Personally, I'm quite disgusted by competitiveness. I hate it. And I loath when I become competitive. But this video... holy crapping fictitious deity... where's that device to stab people in the face over the internet. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Flynn Posted March 21, 2013 I love what you're saying, Sean, because so few people stick up for an online community's less than total friendliness, but a lot of your points are straying dangerously close to "It's fun when you play with friends," which is something of a universal truth with games and doesn't entirely address concerns over a culture composed of perfectly nice people with good intentions interacting to form a toxic gestalt. There are reasons I don't play LoMa games, and not all of them involve a lack of free time or the odd hours I keep. I'm not sure I agree that LoMa games are more toxic than others. Certainly not Dota 2. Ever played Call of Duty on an Xbox? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gormongous Posted March 21, 2013 I'm not sure I agree that LoMa games are more toxic than others. Certainly not Dota 2. Ever played Call of Duty on an Xbox? I've been chewed out by a racist, sexist twelve-year-old on most FPS games, but I've never had someone take it upon themselves to drive me from the community by following me from game to game, harping on my playstyle, which has happened twice in LoMa games I've tried. Like sLiPdIsCo and Jake have said, the high time investment and low margin for error mean that the average player can lose their shit a lot faster and feel a lot more justified for it. If more LoMa games can enable newbies on a large scale without it becoming a stigma, that's awesome. I'd love to see it. I just don't think we're there yet, and in the meantime I think "aggressive communication" provides a smokescreen for some real assholes to thrive, just like the whole "well of course Xbox Live is full of immature bigots on " attitude. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Twig Posted March 21, 2013 I once had someone rage at me for an entire game because I didn't do well. That's nothing worth mentioning. BUT. At the end, I think because I was baiting him for fun (I know I'm part of the problem, but fuck it if I'm not going to get SOME enjoyment out of a dickbird crawling into my ear for an hour), he invited me to a "I SUCK AT DOTA 2" Steam group that he and his friends had set up. I thought it was hilarious, but that's because I take joy in my own misery. I've of late taken it upon myself to calmly explain to people employing racist and homophobic epithets that they should stop using racist and homophobic epithets and, would you believe it, some of them actually apologize! They still yell at me for being bad at games, though. ): Share this post Link to post Share on other sites