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There's no need to defend MGS or Dead Space because no one's attacking them. It's about tropes, and identifying them. Nobody's taking sides, not even Anita in her video.

 

Apart from her single subjective comment -- sorry! I know everyone's tired of that, it's just you highlighted why it's important that she remains objective.

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I think this thread went on for so long and got so awful at points because it has the feminism thing tied into it, which is one of those subjects that people seem to need to WIN rather than discuss (cf. the Feminism thread). When the second thread comes round, I think it'll go a lot nicer if everyone gets out of that mindset and stops insulting or trying to shut down other people's opinions. Disagreeing with others' arguments is fine, but calling them absurd or garbage isn't very constructive, and telling someone why they have their opinion is rather presumptuous and rude. Also, saying that a certain aspect shouldn't be discussed or that things are being over-discussed seems counter-intuitive on a discussion forum. Finally, it would be sage to remember that we have at least one troll floating around and if someone's particularly winding you up, that may be exactly what you're aiming for.

 

Of course, I won't say that the way people have been discussing things has been "wrong", because that would make me a giant hypocrite. This is merely my opinion, and one I've been itching to say through most of this thread but couldn't find the place for. It's not an exaggeration to say that I've been very disappointed with people on both sides of this thread at times, but a lot of good discussion has come out of it as well so I'm looking forward to the second thread!

 

Some good points here, I think.

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Apart from her single subjective comment -- sorry! I know everyone's tired of that, it's just you highlighted why it's important that she remains objective.

 

I don't agree. No one is taking sides on Metal Gear Solid or Dead Space qua games. Anita is definitely taking sides on whether or not sexism is good or bad, and there's nothing wrong with that. 

 

Here's an analogy. Say someone made a video about the history slavery. If part way through the video, that person said that slavery was oppressive and racist, that would be a subjective opinion about slavery. But that subjective opinion is totally unobjectionable. And the fact the person expressed a subjective point of view on slavery would not lessen or undermine their factual account of the history of slavery. 

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 don't agree. No one is taking sides on Metal Gear Solid or Dead Space qua games. Anita is definitely taking sides on whether or not sexism is good or bad, and there's nothing wrong with that. 

 

Here's an analogy. Say someone made a video about the history slavery. If part way through the video, that person said that slavery was oppressive and racist, that would be a subjective opinion about slavery. But that subjective opinion is totally unobjectionable. And the fact the person expressed a subjective point of view on slavery would not lessen or undermine their factual account of the history of slavery. 

 

Anita's comment was about Double Dragon Neon and it's portrayal of women. It was not about sexism.

 

Secondly, your analogy is very vague. If the video was meant as entertainment, then it's fine to have subjective opinion. If it's attempting to be a serious academic work, then it's completely inappropriate. I personally see serious academic works as being more important than mere entertainment (you may disagree with me on that), so it pained me when Anita fell into a realm that wouldn't even be acceptable for an article on Wikipedia.

 

Also: Sorry Ben :(

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I was hoping Jake would see my post then close the thread!

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Anita's comment was about Double Dragon Neon and it's portrayal of women. It was not about sexism.

 

Secondly, your analogy is very vague. If the video was meant as entertainment, then it's fine to have subjective opinion. If it's attempting to be a serious academic work, then it's completely inappropriate. I personally see serious academic works as being more important than mere entertainment (you may disagree with me on that), so it pained me when Anita fell into a realm that wouldn't even be acceptable for an article on Wikipedia.

 

Also: Sorry Ben :(

 

I don't understand how you can argue that Ms. Sarkeesian's video is not about sexism. It explores the sexist portrayal of women in Video games. I thought that was the whole point. 

 

Serious academic work often contains subjective judgments. It would not at all be uncommon, or even remarkable, for a scholarly article to refer to (for example) Jim Crow laws as repressive or unjust or racist. But of course Ms. Sarkeesian's video is not serious academic work, nor is it intended to be. And her video is openly coming from a particular point of view: a feminist point of view. 

 

E: I mean I guess it doesn't really matter, I just find this whole "subjectivity is forbidden in academia" very strange. Academic writers frequently express points of view, make value judgments, suggest future courses of action, and so on. 

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At least keep it open till the new one is out, I need to see people on the internet continuously defend this damsel... almost as though she is some kind of distress.

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This thread first made me really angry and for some reason I made myself keep reading it.

 

That said, even though some of it made me pretty angry, the good points that emerged definitely gave me some food for thought (to the point that I ended up writing a 1000 word article).

 

What I am happy to say is that it was nice to see the regulars on the forum generally comport themselves with the kind of maturity I have grown to appreciate about thumbs crowd.

 

Except for Thunderpeel, you should be ashamed of yourself.

 

I am kidding about that last sentence.

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All the posts since my one are regressive crap.

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I don't understand how you can argue that Ms. Sarkeesian's video is not about sexism.

Me either. I guess that's why I didn't do it.

 

But of course Ms. Sarkeesian's video is not serious academic work, nor is it intended to be. And her video is openly coming from a particular point of view: a feminist point of view.

What are you basing this on? Her previous videos are now part of some university's curriculum, including law schools. Also, this is completely besides the point.

 

E: I mean I guess it doesn't really matter, I just find this whole "subjectivity is forbidden in academia" very strange. Academic writers frequently express points of view, make value judgments, suggest future courses of action, and so on.

*sigh* No academic work contains subjective views. They may make arguments based on presented evidence, but that's not the same as declaring something as "crap".

You seem to be deliberately ignoring everything I'm saying just so you can try and make your point stick, or drag this conversation into other territories. I said everything that needed to be said here, and I don't think I can make my point any clearer, so we should probably just move along.

If you still don't understand my point, and wish to discuss things further, PM me.

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All the posts since my one are regressive crap.

You know, it's quite the opposite. The thread has massively died down since you made your post -- So although nobody is directly responding to it, I think people may have read it and taken it on board.

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We've started to get privately voiced frustrations about this thread, and the level of animosity that has developed is pretty apparent and a bummer anyway. Before it gets to the point where we have a full page of internet forum analysis for every minute of the video, let's just go ahead and close it down. Sorry folks.

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