youmeyou

Feminist Frequency

Recommended Posts

One thing that really bothers me about the video is the claim that the "trope" is so problematic for female representation because not only does it take away power from female characters, but also empowers male characters. The segment goes on to show female characters imprisoned and male characters finding their way out based on their skill and wit, Metal Gear Solid is used as an example. Snake finds himself in a cell twice in MGS, in one instance he gets out of the cell with Otacons assistance, in the other he is released from the cell by Meryl, who has escaped from the cell beside him without anybody's assistance. 

 

Her representation of this "issue" is just an outright lie, and this is supposedly one of the most damaging features of the "trope" for the way it empowers the male lead.

I think that your counter examples may actually prove her point rather than dismantle it, because they both sound like events which were presented as surprise twists. I haven't played the MGS games so I don't really know, but from your description it sounds like you are intended to be surprised to find out that these women have broken you out of jail, defying expectations, like they are successful moments in part because they are playing off of the tropes discussed in the FemFreq video. Maybe that is incorrect.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Haha, oh, Jake. Otacon's a dude!

 

When I played it years ago, I didn't feel like it was supposed to be a twist, but that might just mean I had no expectation of women being helpless in video games by that point in time. Seriously, I was probably 13? Fuck I don't even know. Point is, I wasn't thinking about video games or women or men at a cognitive level by that age. I'm not a very deep person.

 

All I really knew about Meryl was Dat Ass because Snake stared at it. Oh, also I got to see Meryl without pants on because I was good at video games, or something. (So, in that sense, it's probably sexist, but in the damsel-in-distress sense, I'm not so sure. She does eventually get captured, I think, but not in an "I can't help myself!" kind of way. More in an "I just got drugged and am now LITERALLY HELPLESS REGARDLESS OF MY GENDER!" kind of way. Except, you know. Probably not actually like that. What do I even know. Parentheticals!)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Oh right. I know that re otacon, but have always been so inexplicably shit at MGS that its characters and lore just slide off my brain.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Fuck me I am the worst. There was a post here a second ago and I accidentally hit "delete" instead of "quote" on my phone, and without any confirmation, the mobile site just wiped the post from the face of the earth. I'm really sorry about that. Fuck all things. I meant to reply instead. Worst.

The post was:

 

Silenced by my hero; Jake Rodkin. Worst day ever.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

When I played it years ago, I didn't feel like it was supposed to be a twist, but that might just mean I had no expectation of women being helpless in video games by that point in time. Seriously, I was probably 13? Fuck I don't even know. Point is, I wasn't thinking about video games or women or men at a cognitive level by that age. I'm not a very deep person.

 

All I really knew about Meryl was Dat Ass because Snake stared at it. Oh, also I got to see Meryl without pants on because I was good at video games, or something. (So, in that sense, it's probably sexist, but in the damsel-in-distress sense, I'm not so sure. She does eventually get captured, I think, but not in an "I can't help myself!" kind of way. More in an "I just got drugged and am now LITERALLY HELPLESS REGARDLESS OF MY GENDER!" kind of way. Except, you know. Probably not actually like that. What do I even know. Parentheticals!)

 

Same here, I was also 13. Meryl is hardly presented as weak when she breaks out, you see her in the cell next to you doing sit ups before this happens and she seems to bust out at will when she hears something happening in the cell next to her, she then knocks out the guard and steals his gear. She obviously a rookie compared to the legendary soldier, Solid Snake, but the next sequence see's them team up to dispose of enemies. There is a blatant 'dat ass' shot when she runs off, but hey it's Kojima and the entire of MGS4 is Old Snake 'dat ass' (plus it's the only way you can spot her disguised as a soldier).

 

She does get shot and needs to be recused later on, but she'd hardly the damsel Otacon is when he hides in a locker and pisses his pants. But hey my point is, don't hold this up as an example of the male protagonist being able to handle himself when imprisoned when Snake can't break out of a cell on his own (even when the bad guys purposely make it easy for him) and Meryl breaks out completely by her own accord, takes out the guard, steals his gear and helps Snake. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I consider the video an absolute success. Regardless of its perceived quality or subject matter, the fact that so many people are talking about it puts a spotlight on the issue, which forces the conversation even if the participants aren't exactly happy about, well, participating.

I'm interested in what Jake said about the counter-points supporting her argument rather than undermining it. I do have to wonder what's the defining moment of cognitive transformation between "Oh shit, Meryl released me? That was totally unexpected because she is a women and I thought I'd be the one to overpower the guard," and "Oh shit, Meryl released me? Fuckin' A. Let's roll."

I mean, I personally prefer female characters that are not overtly sexualised and are strong, independent and self-sufficient - but is this preference in itself sexist? After all, the focus here is that they appeal to me more than the Damsel in Distress trope. So do I consider a women to be less worthy of empathising or sympathising with unless she's of the former described archetype and not the latter? Maybe. That's kind of hard to admit.

I don't even consider the "Princess" in early games like Mario as a human being, if I'm honest about it. Not maliciously, but the trope is so overused as to render the subject on the same level as a McGuffin. I don't care that I've saved Princess Peach when I reach the end of Mario or whoever it was in Double Dragon. They've become shorthand in the language of games  - a goal-marker that represents my own personal achievement. That's kind of disturbing.

I think we're getting better at equitable representation, though. Take the new Karateka, which Anita cites as a Damsel in Distress example. In fact, the game addresses the trope in a very subtle way. By having the three playable characters representing your lives, you are forced to consider how the Princess feels when she is rescued by each. She still wants to be rescued, but by her beloved. And although the brute and the monk can get the job done, she doesn't suddenly throw her arms around them - she remains a person with her own needs and desires. Whether or not that was intentional is up for debate.

Dead Space is another odd choice as a citation. By all accounts, Nicole Brennan is not a Damsel in Distress - she's a capable and professional medical officer, vulnerable to extreme psychological pressure and crisis (as most of us are) and then later a symbol of Isaac's own guilt. Isaac didn't join the crew destined for the Ishimura to rescue her - he joined the crew because communications went dead and he was worried about her, which seems like a reasonable course of action.

I'm not saying that these choices undermine Anita's argument, but rather that there is alot of room for discussion and debate - certainly, beyond that which can be covered in a single video. I look forward to her future videos.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

That's an awesome first post, Almost a Hero. I agree most of all that Saarkeesian's list of citations should be the beginning of a conversation, not the end, especially if it's a conversation on what they mean, rather than if they're valid. Some examples of the Damsel in Distress are blatant (like you said, poor Peach) and some are subtle (I haven't played any Metal Gear Solid, but Meryl sounds like a tough nut to crack), but all of them should encourage us to interrogate the functions women perform in our games, narratively and otherwise.

 

On a side note, looking at the Tumblr page again, kidnapping is a weirdly common phenomenon in many video game universes. Sure, most of those universes also treat murdering a thousand dudes as a day's work, so the bar for "dastardly act" is a lot higher, but still, surely there are better ways for aspiring villains to meet eligible women and torment their nemeses' psyche.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I consider the video an absolute success. Regardless of its perceived quality or subject matter, the fact that so many people are talking about it puts a spotlight on the issue, which forces the conversation even if the participants aren't exactly happy about, well, participating.

I'm interested in what Jake said about the counter-points supporting her argument rather than undermining it. I do have to wonder what's the defining moment of cognitive transformation between "Oh shit, Meryl released me? That was totally unexpected because she is a women and I thought I'd be the one to overpower the guard," and "Oh shit, Meryl released me? Fuckin' A. Let's roll."

I mean, I personally prefer female characters that are not overtly sexualised and are strong, independent and self-sufficient - but is this preference in itself sexist? After all, the focus here is that they appeal to me more than the Damsel in Distress trope. So do I consider a women to be less worthy of empathising or sympathising with unless she's of the former described archetype and not the latter? Maybe. That's kind of hard to admit.

I don't even consider the "Princess" in early games like Mario as a human being, if I'm honest about it. Not maliciously, but the trope is so overused as to render the subject on the same level as a McGuffin. I don't care that I've saved Princess Peach when I reach the end of Mario or whoever it was in Double Dragon. They've become shorthand in the language of games  - a goal-marker that represents my own personal achievement. That's kind of disturbing.

I think we're getting better at equitable representation, though. Take the new Karateka, which Anita cites as a Damsel in Distress example. In fact, the game addresses the trope in a very subtle way. By having the three playable characters representing your lives, you are forced to consider how the Princess feels when she is rescued by each. She still wants to be rescued, but by her beloved. And although the brute and the monk can get the job done, she doesn't suddenly throw her arms around them - she remains a person with her own needs and desires. Whether or not that was intentional is up for debate.

Dead Space is another odd choice as a citation. By all accounts, Nicole Brennan is not a Damsel in Distress - she's a capable and professional medical officer, vulnerable to extreme psychological pressure and crisis (as most of us are) and then later a symbol of Isaac's own guilt. Isaac didn't join the crew destined for the Ishimura to rescue her - he joined the crew because communications went dead and he was worried about her, which seems like a reasonable course of action.

I'm not saying that these choices undermine Anita's argument, but rather that there is alot of room for discussion and debate - certainly, beyond that which can be covered in a single video. I look forward to her future videos.

 

I can't really speak to the MGS example, having never played the game, but I do have something to say about Dead Space. Your girlfriend starts the game off missing, presumably dead. You learn mostly about her through flashbacks or weird hallucinations, and she is the driving motivation for Isaac to start off the whole game. That fits perfectly into the Damsel trope: she's an object the hero must find and rescue, and that goal is what defines the entire arc of his story. Just because she has a backstory where she is described as competent, doesn't make her any less of an object that needs saving.

 

In fact, I think Dead Space represents another overused trope (one that I'm sure Sarkeesian will mention at some point). It's called 'women in refrigerators ' With that trope, a woman (usually the main character's wife or girlfriend) is murdered at the beginning of the story. Her murder is then used as motivation for the main character (usually male) to go on a revenge-fueled mission. It's a lazy, overused way to get the plot started, and it sets the women up to look like sacrifices to the overall male heroic story. I definitely think that Dead Space fits into this trope, especially the first game. This supposedly competent woman is essentially killed offscreen as an excuse for Isaac to take action and have an emotion. It just feels kind of lazy.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It's such a cop out how suddenly everyone refers to every female character in video games as merely an object for the protagonist to win. When I played through Dead Space that didn't even cross my mind, I felt genuinely bad for Isaac as I always assumed he went there just with the sliver of hope that she might still be alive, even though they were having trouble with their relationship he obviously still had feelings for her.

 

But I guess not, Isaac has no feelings at all for his girlfriend, to him she was merely an object to be won. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

We only know what Isaac feels because it's what the writers tell us he feels. In this case, we're told he feels remorse for a female character (who never actually get to meet) and somehow the player is supposed to take that on face-value and believe the emotional backstory. It's a fast, easy way for the writers to add an emotionally core to their plot, but it comes at the expense of a female character, who the player only cares about because Isaac does. She's objectified in that she's the object used to give the story dramatic weight. It feels especially useless, since Dead Space doesn't even need the 'missing but probably dead' girlfriend story to add drama. It all feels kind of tacked on to the main story.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I can't really speak to the MGS example, having never played the game, but I do have something to say about Dead Space. Your girlfriend starts the game off missing, presumably dead. You learn mostly about her through flashbacks or weird hallucinations, and she is the driving motivation for Isaac to start off the whole game. That fits perfectly into the Damsel trope: she's an object the hero must find and rescue, and that goal is what defines the entire arc of his story. Just because she has a backstory where she is described as competent, doesn't make her any less of an object that needs saving.

 

In fact, I think Dead Space represents another overused trope (one that I'm sure Sarkeesian will mention at some point). It's called 'women in refrigerators ' With that trope, a woman (usually the main character's wife or girlfriend) is murdered at the beginning of the story. Her murder is then used as motivation for the main character (usually male) to go on a revenge-fueled mission. It's a lazy, overused way to get the plot started, and it sets the women up to look like sacrifices to the overall male heroic story. I definitely think that Dead Space fits into this trope, especially the first game. This supposedly competent woman is essentially killed offscreen as an excuse for Isaac to take action and have an emotion. It just feels kind of lazy.

 

I think that last sentence sums up a lot of game and often film writing in general. More often than not, you can bet that the following tropes will be used:

  • Loved one is in danger and must be saved
  • World is in danger and must be saved
  • Main character has been wronged and must wreak revenge upon those responsible

As a lot of stories feature male protagonists it's an easy jump to imagine that when trope #1 is used, it'll invariably be a woman. While I would like to see more female protagonists in games and often choose to play as one when an option is offered like in Mass Effect, I'm not sure that the damsel in distress trope is noteworthy except in the most extreme cases and even then it's more down to it being a tried-and-tested plot formula than any kind of sexism or whatever, the same way that someone saving their family/friends (Because everyone is helpless except the main character, right?) is used all the time.

 

I mean, if we get to the point where we have to think long and hard about putting a woman in any kind of danger in a story then we're heading into some pretty daft territory IMO. Also I think picking and choosing these damsel in distress examples is questionable when during the same games you save numerous dudes too.

 

BTW to touch on the above, Metal Gear Solid is a really funny beast. On the one hand it's often ridiculed for featuring classic perverted moments like Snake checking out a girl's cleavage or a character slapping a girl's ass right in front of his girlfriend. Yet the next minute it features extremely well-rounded and strong female characters, and MGS4 in particular surprised me with this enemy type that pops up numerous times throughout the game:

 

FROG_-5_by_L1QU1D5N4KEjpeg.jpeg

 

... who after some fearsome firefights and such turn out to be women. I guess it does say something about my expectations, but when they groaned with a female voice as I silently shot them in the head it caught me off guard. Other than that there's no indication or behaviour that'd give their gender away, which is the kind of equal treatment I guess Anita is striving for. So in that respect MGS is a perfect example of how to do it completely right and completely wrong at the same time. :tup:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

In what context? There are huge fundamental differences between men and women, especially in terms of physical power. This isn't cultural, it's evolutionary. 

In a modern western context in which labour saving devices eliminate the advantage of physical power. Physical differences do not equate to differences in capability, that is what I was taught to believe. This can be extended to the physically disabled.

The Zelda example is interesting as Link is not physically strong, he is often portrayed as a child. So it is not his physical maleness which makes him capable it is his heroism. Zelda is only heroic when in her androgynous form. This is problematic.

Also societal pressure encourages us to contradict our evolutionary biology in numerous ways. That is what laws are for. We are dumb animals, but we are well trained dumb animals.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

In a modern western context in which labour saving devices eliminate the advantage of physical power. Physical differences do not equate to differences in capability, that is what I was taught to believe. This can be extended to the physically disabled.

 

I really need to remember to say this next time my girlfriend asks me to open a jar of pickled onions. :tup:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

BTW to touch on the above, Metal Gear Solid is a really funny beast. On the one hand it's often ridiculed for featuring classic perverted moments like Snake checking out a girl's cleavage or a character slapping a girl's ass right in front of his girlfriend. Yet the next minute it features extremely well-rounded and strong female characters, and MGS4 in particular surprised me with this enemy type that pops up numerous times throughout the game:

 

 

... who after some fearsome firefights and such turn out to be women. I guess it does say something about my expectations, but when they groaned with a female voice as I silently shot them in the head it caught me off guard. Other than that there's no indication or behaviour that'd give their gender away, which is the kind of equal treatment I guess Anita is striving for. So in that respect MGS is a perfect example of how to do it completely right and completely wrong at the same time. :tup:

 

Don't forget that all the main bosses were a female supergroup, though if you knew what you were doing you could have photoshoots with them were they pose for you. In the case of Haven Troopers/FROGS, I wouldn't be surprised if Kojima opted for all of them to be female purely for the crotch grab joke - crotch grab a typical male enemy and they get knocked out, crotch grab a Haven Trooper and they call you a pervert (alternatively though MGS has always kind of had an underlying theme that women make better soldiers).

 

Like you say though MGS is a funny beast, personally I always saw Metal Gear Online to be completely filled with homoeroticism, though maybe that was because my character wore leopard print pants shirtless with suspenders and was a master at charming other men.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I really need to remember to say this next time my girlfriend asks me to open a jar of pickled onions. :tup:

I'm afraid in that instance you are her labour saving device.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Don't forget that all the main bosses were a female supergroup, though if you knew what you were doing you could have photoshoots with them were they pose for you. In the case of Haven Troopers/FROGS, I wouldn't be surprised if Kojima opted for all of them to be female purely for the crotch grab joke - crotch grab a typical male enemy and they get knocked out, crotch grab a Haven Trooper and they call you a pervert (alternatively though MGS has always kind of had an underlying theme that women make better soldiers).

 

Like you say though MGS is a funny beast, personally I always saw Metal Gear Online to be completely filled with homoeroticism, though maybe that was because my character wore leopard print pants shirtless with suspenders and was a master at charming other men.

 

You... can crotch grab people? D:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

In a modern western context in which labour saving devices eliminate the advantage of physical power. Physical differences do not equate to differences in capability, that is what I was taught to believe. This can be extended to the physically disabled.

 

You can't deny the facts though, pick almost any sport that relies on physical power - middling male professionals would completely dominate the top tier females.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You... can crotch grab people? D:

 

Yeah, you hold people up and search them for ammo, at the end of a search your given the opportunity to squeeze the crotch which knocks the person out. FROGS however will give you a line like "all you men are the same" then kick you.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There are huge fundamental differences between men and women, especially in terms of physical power. This isn't cultural, it's evolutionary.

 

Whoa, not letting this shit go: there are physical differences between males and females, but they're close enough that weak men aren't as strong as strong women.

 

But in terms of brain operation there's very negligible differences (men have heavier brains but that doesn't appear to do much for us), and studies of matriarchal and gender-equivalent cultures demonstrate that the vast majority of behaviours we ascribe to gender are cultural, not genetic. The culture-derived behaviour I particularly enjoy telling people about is the idea that men have a 'genetic' impulse to have as much sex as possible - not only is it not shared by non-patriarchal cultures, it wasn't even shared by the Greeks, who believed that women were insatiable sexpots and men dictated when sex happened.

 

Genetically, men and women share the vast majority of our chromosomes. Men differ in only one chromosome (fun fact: all humans start off as biologically female until the Y chromosome kicks in, which is why we all have nipples). Any genuine differences between biological genders has to then express itself on the Y chromosome, which means that if any one non Y-chromosome carrier, anywhere, at any time, expresses it as well, then it can't be on the Y chromosome and therefore can't be something genetically exclusive to men, unless there's something unusual and special-case going on with the genetics. Anything that happens commonly with men but uncommonly with women is almost certainly cultural, not genetic.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.