At the Gates

[Jon Shafer]

So, yeah - I'm making a 4X game where you play a barbarian kingdom during the fall of Rome!

 

I figured it would probably be good to have a thread dedicated to the game, rather than continuing to use the one for the TMA episode.

 

Our campaign ends tomorrow and we're getting close to 100k. If we keep up the current pace we have a real shot at the 125k stretch goal, which adds more map/game setup options and an Earth map.

 

If you haven't checked out the updates (lately), here are the last few I've posted:

 

• The social classes system - which was later removed
• How the Romans fit into the game
• The process I went through when founding Conifer
• AtG's unique take on diplomacy
• How combat and supply work

 

Tomorrow morning I'll be putting up a final update outlining what's in store for AtG over the next year and a half. It should be a fun ride!

 

- Jon

[Jon Shafer]

As promised, here's the final update before our Kickstarter campaign ends, laying out the road ahead. Thanks for your support everyone!

 

- Jon

[sclpls]

Hey Jon, congratulations!

I have a suggestion for a game design topic for you to consider: feedback that explains why a player is losing. One of things that makes it so difficult for a lot of people to get into strategy games is that when they lose, they often have no idea why, and therefore when they play again they aren't sure what sort of things they should try to do differently. What sort of feedback should a game provide to let a player know what areas he or she can improve upon in the next play through?

Anyway, congratulations again on the successful kickstarter, I wish you the best of luck!

[Jon Shafer]

Hey Jon, congratulations!

I have a suggestion for a game design topic for you to consider: feedback that explains why a player is losing. One of things that makes it so difficult for a lot of people to get into strategy games is that when they lose, they often have no idea why, and therefore when they play again they aren't sure what sort of things they should try to do differently. What sort of feedback should a game provide to let a player know what areas he or she can improve upon in the next play through?

Anyway, congratulations again on the successful kickstarter, I wish you the best of luck!

 

Thanks sir!

 

You bring up a really good point, and one developers often overlook. There's really not enough attention paid to introducing games to players, and even I fall into that trap sometimes.

 

- Jon

[sclpls]

Don't know if anyone else here backed the kickstarter at a level where they have access to early builds of the game, but if you did I would recommend checking it out now. The game clearly still has a long way to go, but the early game is pretty fun to play at the moment, and there have been a lot of really cool revisions going on that I'm into.

[ExitDose]

Has diplomacy been implemented, yet?

[Jon Shafer]

Has diplomacy been implemented, yet?

 

 

A super rough, basic form of diplomacy is in but it's definitely the feature that still needs the most fleshing out. Right now my current priority is getting the AI to apply more pressure to players (exploring, migrating, harvesting resources, etc.) as we've found that to be the game's biggest 'impediment to fun'. Partly by association, diplomacy is next on the list. I've already implemented the architectural framework for it (i.e. the hard part), so most of the remaining work is simply adding content, playtesting and polishing.

 

- Jon

[tberton]

For anybody not actively following the development of this game, Jon just posted a

(one year in game time). It looks really good! Here are some thoughts (and questions for you Jon, if you happen to read this).

 

Art: The game looks beautiful. I love the "watercolour painting" style for the map, especially the sketch paper look for the fog of war. The characters look pretty good too. Are those portraits mostly final, or are they stand-ins? I just ask because they all seem to be a bit different stylistically. Also, will there be a variety of character sprites, or will the be fairly generic for each unit?

 

Clans: I love the idea of the clan system. It feels like taking the abstract "population" of Civ and making it more concrete and interesting. You mentioned stories and events: will there be CKII style events with the clans? Will Fame be the only way to recruit clans? I'm fine with acquiring clans passively, but I think it would be cool to be able to recruit more actively, such as acquiring clans from the neutral camps or bandits that you run across, or perhaps even convincing clans that belong to a rival group to join your side. That seems like it would be a really interesting way to be aggressive without being militaristic.

 

Seasons: I've loved the focus on seasons and supply right from the start. The gameplay variation is one thing, but even having some visual change to the map adds a lot of character to the game. Will seasons affect tiles in a consistent or variant way? Will certain tiles always get snowy during winter, or will there be a possibly of particular bad winters or prosperous summers?

 

Can't wait to see more on the game!

[dibs]

I rarely bother to watch any media of that sort, but i caved. This game is so sold on me - I loved what I saw in the video. The watercolours were so pretty. The clan system looks great. I like the ideas that you aren't really sure what you are getting into untill you actually send a surveyor to find out. Food would seem to be a major pressure (though not in this vid) which is great, because I heard those pesky Romans have a lot of food! Little things like the changing landscape, and the need to take the weather into account when building (like the temporarily useless farm build just as winter started) look like they will lead to interesting scenarios. I'm guessing your migration pattern will be heavily influenced by the technology you have acquired.

 

Few things: Make the next vid a bit quicker please. Fine for you to hum and haw over where to go next, but in a lets play i would have been just as happy to watch you fail if it all happened a bit quicker!

Are rumours always true? I was sort of hoping that you would reach the farmlands to the west only to find out that it had been pillaged, or never have existed, or even that the location was wrong, and the settlement was 3 steps further west than the rumours had said.

How many turns/years do you think a typical game will be?

[Jon Shafer]

Glad you enjoyed the video guys!

 

 

 

Are those portraits mostly final, or are they stand-ins? I just ask because they all seem to be a bit different stylistically.

 

I'd say roughly 90% of the portraits are still placeholder.

 

 

 

Also, will there be a variety of character sprites, or will the be fairly generic for each unit?

 

Units of the same profession will use the same on-map art. As much as we'd like to have as many unique sprites, the unit animations are already eating up the majority of the project's budget, so we have to cut a few corners where we can.

 

 

 

You mentioned stories and events: will there be CKII style events with the clans? Will Fame be the only way to recruit clans? I'm fine with acquiring clans passively, but I think it would be cool to be able to recruit more actively, such as acquiring clans from the neutral camps or bandits that you run across, or perhaps even convincing clans that belong to a rival group to join your side. That seems like it would be a really interesting way to be aggressive without being militaristic.

 

There will definitely be events. The events system is more focused on the clans you have as opposed to the world itself, and there probably won't be a lot of (if any) "go on this quest and as a reward Clan [x] will join you." If you can clarify for me specifically what you mean by "CK2-style events" I should be able to provide a more detailed answer though!

 

Currently the main way you acquire new clans is through Fame, but that won't be the case forever. When you capture a neutral structure you also get the resident inside, but finding those is fairly rare (this playthrough notwithstanding!).

I'm also planning on fleshing out the bandits so that you can have more dynamic, nuanced interactions with them. Maybe they show up and ask for something specific, and if you give in they return home. They might also act as mercenaries, and allow you to buy them off permanently.

 

 

 

Will seasons affect tiles in a consistent or variant way? Will certain tiles always get snowy during winter, or will there be a possibly of particular bad winters or prosperous summers?

 

The seasonal change is mostly predictable, but there can be particularly warm/cool seasons, and I'll also be adding weather events like blizzards and droughts which will affect specific regions. My rule of thumb is that you'll get the same weather about 85% of the time, as that's predictable enough to plan around but not so predictable that it gets boring.

 

 

 

Few things: Make the next vid a bit quicker please. Fine for you to hum and haw over where to go next, but in a lets play i would have been just as happy to watch you fail if it all happened a bit quicker!

 

Yeah, sorry, I've heard that comment a few times. I'll try to make sure future videos are more action and less, you know, me thinking. Look on the bright side, at least you're not part of my regular gaming group!

 

 

 

Are rumours always true? I was sort of hoping that you would reach the farmlands to the west only to find out that it had been pillaged, or never have existed, or even that the location was wrong, and the settlement was 3 steps further west than the rumours had said.

 

Rumored locations are in fact always real. This wasn't the case earlier in development, but I changed it because it was often frustrating, especially when you'd built up an entire strategy to take advantage of something that didn't exist. I agree that having some rumors turn out to be fake sounds cool, but the concept really falls apart once you actually play the game.

 

 

 

How many turns/years do you think a typical game will be?

 

We haven't nailed it down yet, but probably in the 200-300 range. That might sound like a lot fewer than most 4X games, but (as you know all too well having watched that video!) in AtG there's a whole lot more to think about during each turn. It's actually a pretty good analogy for our overall approach with AtG: quality over quantity.

 

- Jon

[tberton]

Thanks for the responses Jon! By "CK2-style events" I meant events where it's like "Clan Jones wants this thing, Clan Smith wants that thing. What do you do?" And get rewards or punishments based on those decisions. So not necessarily stuff tied to the map, but stuff that fleshes out the internal politics of your society.

[Jon Shafer]

Thanks for the responses Jon! By "CK2-style events" I meant events where it's like "Clan Jones wants this thing, Clan Smith wants that thing. What do you do?" And get rewards or punishments based on those decisions. So not necessarily stuff tied to the map, but stuff that fleshes out the internal politics of your society.

 

Ah, gotcha. Yes, there are definitely events like that, and in fact they're a fair bit more in-depth. Instead of a single event, Clans can start feuding and you'll have a few different ways of addressing that. You can give one side or the other what they want (e.g. kicking one Clan out of the Settlement via a new job), ignore them and hope they don't get too upset (the viability of this strategy varies based on the situation), shut them up using Alcohol, whip them back into line, etc.

 

The focus really is on the Clans themselves and the strategy of how to deal with them. I didn't want events to be one-off "Hey, make this one random decision that won't tie back into the rest of the game in any way aside from the bonuses/penalties!" We still have work to do on the system, but it's shaping up nicely. I didn't get it to show it off at all in this Let's Play video, but that also varies game to game.

 

- Jon

[tberton]

Sweet, that sounds really exciting! I'm pumped for the game!

[dibs]

Thanks for the responses!  I can see the shorter game working. With so much investment in an individual clan/unit they will need a lot of management each turn to get the best out of them.

[Jon Shafer]

My pleasure guys. Let me know if you ever have any other questions about the game.

 

- Jon

[riadsala]

Question: would you consider making a sdk/modtool for the AI? I remember being really impressed with the CivIV:BetterAI mod that eventually came out once Fixaris gave the community access to the relevant parts of the game. I think I remember you saying that  you're not a fan of modern AI techniques, but it would be interesting to see what the community could come up with

[Jon Shafer]

Question: would you consider making a sdk/modtool for the AI? I remember being really impressed with the CivIV:BetterAI mod that eventually came out once Fixaris gave the community access to the relevant parts of the game. I think I remember you saying that  you're not a fan of modern AI techniques, but it would be interesting to see what the community could come up with

 

Oh, I definitely would. In fact, I've been planning on it from day 1! Shortly after the game comes out I'll be posting all of the code files for the game's AI, interface, and map generation.

 

- Jon