Favourite Combat

[I_smell]

This doesn't strike me as a very Idle Thumbs topic, but y'know- COSTS NOTHIN' TO MAKE A THREAD!

That new DmC just came out and I've been keepin' an eye out for it. I've played like a hundred hours of

, literally, the game's just amazing to me. On the surface, the animations and sound and art all look n' feel amazing. The moves you have are so interesting and fun to throw yourself around with, and the enemies have SO MANY TRICKS! They fuse together, they swim underground, they latch onto you and inflate and deflect attacks- I JUST got into a new mechanic in this game that's like an active reload I've just been ignoring this whole time.

So when I heard that a new developer was making DmC, I thought "I dunno, can they do all this work and live up to it, or is it gonna be starting back from square 1?"

I played the demo, and it feels like they totally did. It's not perfect but it ticks all the boxes, even holding onto the tradition of giving enemies new attacks, animations and AI behavoirs that only appear on higher difficulty levels- and that's going the extra mile if you ask me.

Anyway I hate starting on long posts, so I'll stop there, but my other favourite combat systems in games are Gears of War, Dark Souls, Streets of Rage, and Vanquish eventually pulled me under.

Y'know what else? I love Bioshock! I think it gets a bad rap for this stuff, but whatever, you can pull the hat off a guy's head and stick mines to it.

Big fans of this kind of stuff I CANNOT RECCOMEND ENOUGH the Aztez Development Blog. It's close analysis of the design decisions that go into these games, and it's taking all these nebulous "combos are sweet" thoughts and putting them into actually well-articulated words.

I'm avoiding fighting games, cos I feel like that's so much of a bigger conversation to get into.

[melmer]

DmC is sooooo good, i started it last night. i'll write more when i don't have to pretend to be working

[melmer]

One thing that's hugely important in any kind of combat is enemy feedback, there's nothing worse than hitting an enemy with a 10 ton war axe for them to just stand there and act like you've slapped them with a wet flannel.

http://youtu.be/A9nNOS6FET4

Skip to 54sec

My favourite example (and one of the most extreme examples) are the giant robots in EDF2017, they practically bend over backwards as you pelt them with rockets and machine gun fire. It feels fantastic, you really get a sense that you're doing some damage. Stupidly the American made spin off 'EDF insect Armageddon' dropped this feature and had 50ft bullet sponge robots with no hit feedback whatsoever it was most unsatisfactory.

[castorp]

I really liked the combat in God of War I and II on the hardest two difficulties. You had to be careful with every enemy, be tactical about it, plan your approach. Still very hard, but very satisfying when you managed to pull through.

Never had much for combat in FPS', but I had a lot of fun with it in Bioshock 2, again on very hard (or what's it called) - probably the most fun I had with combat in a first person game ever.

[Sno]

One thing that's hugely important in any kind of combat is enemy feedback, there's nothing worse than hitting an enemy with 10 ton war axe for them to just stand there and act like you've slapped them with a wet flannel.

http://youtu.be/A9nNOS6FET4?t=1m53s

My favourite example (and one of the most extreme examples) are the giant robots in EDF2017, they practically bend over backwards as you pelt them rockets and machine gun fire. It feels fantastic, you really get a sense that you're doing some damage. Stupidly the American made spin off 'EDF insect Armageddon' dropped this feature and had 50ft bullet sponge robots with no hit feedback whatsoever it was most unsatisfactory.

Similarly, one of the most derided aspects of RE6 has been the lack of feedback the enemies give while taking damage, relative to how reactive they were in RE4.

Even in a game like Halo, there's that detail where you can see the shields gradually balloon out and finally pop as damage mounts against an enemy.

Good, intuitive feedback is awesome, and a truly top-shelf game will use it to nudge the player towards the right tactics.

As for DMC, i finally just played the demo for Ninja Theory's game and found it fairly impressive, but on a personal note, also kind of bewildering. After all the time i've put into the original games, having so many of the same moves available, but the control be completely different, is a total muscle memory nightmare. (Definitely didn't like not having a lock-on.) It seems like a fine game though, i want to play it.

I think DMC3 was the best game in that series though, and i would argue that it might actually be the best game of its kind. (Spiritual successor Bayonetta is also a pretty phenomenal game, seriously considering buying a Wii U to play Bayonetta 2.)

[I_smell]

Yeah the controls was the big problem with me aswel. I mean you can't lock-on any more, like what's that about, right?

It's strange that this is their attempt to make it inviting to new players. On the one hand I can SEE WHERE THEY'RE COMING FROM making it so fluid and easy to switch weapons mid-combo, but on the other hand making so many seperate pieces rely on that variable is so hard to keep track of. I'm not a fan of double-tapping to lunge forward either.

I did really love DMC3, I think I played through it about 3 times but haven't touched it in years since.

I was talking to someone yesterday who hates the new DmC, and they were so pissed off that he doesn't have all the Style stuff (swordmaster, gunslinger, royal guard) and doesn't have 4 different guns. I didn't notice that at all, cos I'm so much more a fan of Nero, but now I get why that would annoy people. Cos Dante does have a fucking quadrillion moves usually, but with me playing as Nero for years it's not too much of a change.

Still never played Bayonetta. Or God of War.

And yea I just went nuts in Bioshock. The way you can set people on fire and they run around screaming and jump in water, the way you can poison med-bays, or cover a chair in 12 proximity mines and throw it at someone...

A game like Skyrim has first-person spells aswel, but the enemies feel so much more alive and capable in Bioshock.

[Sno]

I'm trying to think of an interesting way to articulate it, but i think a lot of my comments about combat systems would just end up retreading my thoughts on what constitutes well balanced difficulty in games, that everything should have its time and place.

I feel like brawlers can learn a lot from fighting games, the design mindset where every move has a distinct utility and drawback.

To be completely honest, i think God of War has traditionally been very weak in this regard, while I think DMC has actually always been one of the most sterling examples of it. (On top of which there exists a combo system with no purpose other than to encourage you to be even more stylish and take even more risks.)

Also, you should definitely check out Bayonetta.

[Lu]

Ninja Gaiden Black! I think I played through that whole game like 4 times. God of War always felt like the anti-Ninja Gaiden to me; loose and, what's the word... delayed? I don't know. At some point I stopped playing God of War and I don't remember why.

I played only a little of DMC3, but I gotta say that that new one piqued my curiosity. And hey, it's on PC too!

Ok, so a totally different style, but definitely one of my favourites combat systems: The Batman: Arkham games. So many things that game does in its game design that is just so... Modern!

[I_smell]

Yea another thing I always talk about being important in a combat system is having genuinely interesting enemies. I think Gears of War is where I first started appreciating this.

The Flamer can use a flame-thrower to ruin you up-close,although his huge weakness is that if you shoot his back he actually explodes and damages everyone else around him, like a walking red barrel.

The bloodmount moves fast and can cut you up, then also has a RIDER who shoots, and they're both independant entities that you can split up.

The kantus has these ink grenades that poison a radius, he has this really annoying little SMG, he doesn't use cover but can dodge, and he also REVIVES dead soldiers, which is really cool and makes him a huge priority.

Throwing all this kinda stuff into a big chaotic soup in Horde mode, along with all the FUN AS HECK weapons, is amazing. You have to put in so much effort to stack that many functions onto every new piece.

Mass Effect 3 did a FAIRLY admirable job of emulating it, but maybe one of the worst co-op survival modes I've ever played was TF2's Mann Vs Machine.

Note: I don't like stat-heavy games like MMOs or Borderlands or Diablo, and it fell flat for me on everything I've talked about being an important part of the experience here. I mean- as such a fan of the dynamic between the Heavy, the Medic, the Scout and all the rest, can you imagine my legitemate HORROR when I found myself in a boss fight against this?

[youmeyou]

I'm a big fan of God of War, but I didn't really view it as a challenge or play it on very hard. It just has some of the best game feel I've ever experienced. It's intensely satisfying to wade into a group of enemies and watch them fly as your blades cut through them. (And then grab the last remaining soldier and rip him in two).

I didn't really enjoy the first Devil May Cry actually. So maybe it's an indicator of taste. I had a lot of trouble identifying the interplay of my actions and subsequent enemy feedback in the first DMC. Kind of what Mington is talking about with the robot response in EDF, I didn't get the immediate sense my attacks were doing a ton of damage and how they were damaging enemies. Like the gun mechanic felt totally like what Sno mentioned about being stylish for no mechanical reason. Except in GoW it felt stylish and also decimated fools. But when I was shooting guys in the air it felt stylish but the guy was still alive when I landed. I dunno, it was a long time ago, I'll dload the the demo for the latest one to see if I still feel the same way.

[derskusmacher]

I'll probably be the odd man out on this one but I LOVE the combat model in Monster Hunter. It's not the deepest in terms of move sets but the weapons all work differently. At first I hated the animation times and being locked into them, but it teaches you to really think about what you're doing, you need to by aware of what the monster is doing and how long you have to get off a certain combo. Add breakable parts on monsters and you have some really satisfying tactical combat.

[TychoCelchuuu]

Doom, Quake, Red Orchestra, Zeno Clash, Dark Messiah of Might and Magic, Far Cry 2, Teleglitch, TF2 before items took it over, Starsiege Tribes, and also I have a weird enjoyment for mediocre third person shooters, which I enjoy much more than good third person shooters, such that Spec Ops: The Line and the original Mass Effect are two of my favorite games when it comes to the combat.

[youmeyou]

Oh man, Dark Messiah was the best. I'm kind of sad they didn't keep the kick mechanics in Dishonored. It was probably too silly for the tone (and was basically replaced with wind blast), but kicking guys off ledges in Dark Messiah never got old.

[osmosisch]

Dark Souls (the physicality and momentum, the way in which you go from needing stats to actively avoiding them to challenge yourself), Far Cry 2 (similar, doing stuff like a playthrough where you only use scavenged weapons; the sniper rifle) and Zeno Clash.

I have a very nostalgic sweet spot for party-based turnbased combat due to

.

Xcom (the old one) and Silent Storm are huge favourites because of the terrain destruction and the tactical options it gave.

[Gormongous]

I still remember the first FEAR for having really frenetic combat, only regulated by the protagonist's slo-mo power, that tore up whatever room it went down in and left a real mess. All the guns were loud as heck and gouged chunks out of the walls and floor, so even when you missed, it did a lot of visible damage to something.

[osmosisch]

Oh man, Max Payne!

[Sno]

I still remember the first FEAR for having really frenetic combat, only regulated by the protagonist's slo-mo power, that tore up whatever room it went down in and left a real mess. All the guns were loud as heck and gouged chunks out of the walls and floor, so even when you missed, it did a lot of visible damage to something.

The AI in that game is brilliant, you just never see it play out that way when you go flying into a room and kill everybody before they can even respond. I have always felt that FEAR would have actually been a way better game without the bullet time gimmick.

Speaking of shooters, god damn do i love the Unreal weapons. There are so many tricks built into each of those guns, just one of the most nuanced, balanced, and creative selections in a shooter. There's like six ways to use the rocket launcher in Unreal. You can fire a single missile or charge up for a cluster of missiles that you can fire as a focused shot or in a spread pattern, and you can also lock onto an enemy for a homing shot. In certain games you can even fire them like grenades, and you can charge that too. The Unreal rocket launcher knows no restraint, but It was all useful functionality!

Or the old shock rifle combos, or gnarly translocator telefrags, or even the damn impact hammer instant kill/rocket jump.

[I_smell]

I don't like Monster Hunter, but I DID really enjoy Dark Souls.

I think they're similar in that everything's really slow and deliberate. I've not played much Monster Hunter but I think it's the effect that the art and animation has on how the game feels that turns me off.

In Dark Souls everyone's dragging their bodies, carrying the weight of all this armour and exherting so much energy to desperately lunge their limbs forward- so whatever happens, it looks like the characters are using everything they have. In Monster Hunter though, that stupid pose he does when you drink a potion? This giant, colourful, regal fuckin jewel-encrusted club? I think even if the timing and all the inputs matched up exactly the same in both games, I'd feel way more annoyed with it in Monster Hunter.

If I'm gonna die at the fault of a ten-second health-potion animation, I at least want the character to scramble it out of that crusty satchel and chug the potion for his goddamn life. Then when I die I can say "hey, we both tried our best".

Has anyone played Dead Space? I don't play horror games, but when I watched a Quick Look I was pickin my jaw up off the floor. These dog enemies were pouncing all over the environment and everything was getting it's legs cut off.

[Roderick]

Everyone's going to poop on me, but I love the combat in Assassin's Creed. Yeah, sometimes it is a little unpredictable, and yeah, you baically have a 'win' button if you time your ripostes right, but there are just so many ways you can attack and mess around with the bad guys. In Revelations you can stick bombs on them that explode in money, you have a hook that you can use to sort of slide over them and pull them along, you can steal their wallets while in combat, kick them, throw sand in their face... it shouldn't be this involved but it totally is. And you keep discovering new tricks.

Oh and ironically you can throw the biggest, most lumbering weapons you have. It takes a while to gear up for the attack, but nothing beats flinging a giant cleaver at an enemy, hearing it Doppler through the air and landing in his chest. And then coolly pick up the weapon that's still lying there.

[melmer]

DmC has just given me a dragon punch! My favouritest of all punches. The combat in this game is still a bit confusing with triggers remapping the face buttons, i still haven't got my head around it 100% yet. but i have to applaud them as they've managed to fit (what I guess will end up being) 6 entirely different weapons all accessible by the flick of the d pad or holding down triggers. So you could switch between all six on the fly during the same combo without having to go to a weapon select screen. No wait 7 weapons

[Sno]

I don't like Monster Hunter, but I DID really enjoy Dark Souls.

I think they're similar in that everything's really slow and deliberate. I've not played much Monster Hunter but I think it's the effect that the art and animation has on how the game feels that turns me off.

In Dark Souls everyone's dragging their bodies, carrying the weight of all this armour and exherting so much energy to desperately lunge their limbs forward- so whatever happens, it looks like the characters are using everything they have. In Monster Hunter though, that stupid pose he does when you drink a potion? This giant, colourful, regal fuckin jewel-encrusted club? I think even if the timing and all the inputs matched up exactly the same in both games, I'd feel way more annoyed with it in Monster Hunter.

If I'm gonna die at the fault of a ten-second health-potion animation, I at least want the character to scramble it out of that crusty satchel and chug the potion for his goddamn life. Then when I die I can say "hey, we both tried our best".

There's a certain charm to how little Monster Hunter takes itself seriously, like the goofy girlish run your character puts on when he sprints away from a close threat, all those little details.

Anyways, they're both big animation-priority kind of games, but i think the big difference is that in the Souls games, you are chaining together a lot of small moves with less individual commitment, and you're doing it in a context where you can really control the pace of an encounter. In Monster Hunter, you're very much at the whims of whatever large beasts are roaming the game environment, and a good strong hit will lock you down for several seconds. As opposed to the methodical, controlled nature of Dark Souls, Monster Hunter is a very unpredictable, flailing, and ridiculous game. (With a pretty satisfying Kkchunk sort of feel to landing big hits.)

I actually do really like Monster Hunter though, but you really need a good multiplayer group to mentor you through to the point where it starts to click.

Has anyone played Dead Space? I don't play horror games, but when I watched a Quick Look I was pickin my jaw up off the floor. These dog enemies were pouncing all over the environment and everything was getting it's legs cut off.

The first Dead Space is one of my favorite games of the last five years, the second game goes a little too hard in the action direction, and i'm pretty concerned about the third game. (Let's just hope it doesn't completely follow the RE4-6 arc.)

I think the whole "strategic dismemberment" thing is pretty brilliant though, trying to change up the gameplay language a bit so you're not just going for headshots, but instead are attacking enemies in different ways to respond to different situations. Binary Domain also really focuses on stuff like that as well, and i liked it there too. I mean, there have been games where enemies would react differently to being shot in the shoulder than if in the leg, but it didn't honestly change the dynamic of the battle afterwards, which is what is happening with games like these.

[youmeyou]

I loved the first Dead Space more for tone and setting than movement control, but its physics and animation are absolutely brilliant. Your character feels heavy and sluggish, weighed down by artificial gravity, struggling to turn and line up a shot before the xenomorph charging towards you gets too close. Feels good man.

[Sno]

There's a lot of great, subtle animation in Dead Space, like the way Isaac's posture changes in the zero gravity environments or the way he tip toes through some nasty meat sludge, or how the melee attacks all convey just the right amount of panic and disgust. (Isaac's barks and grunts are pretty great too. With no spoken dialogue, you get the sense that he's as grossed out as you are.)

I also felt like Dead Space 2 lost a lot in how it handled its zero gravity environments. Free floating movement ended up just being actually much less interesting than pushing off between different surfaces and then walking around with mag boots. More specifically though, the first game simply actually does stuff with those environments, but virtually nothing happens in DS2's zero gravity environments. (Relative to the first game, there are far, far fewer enemy encounters in those portions of DS2. You basically start perceiving them as safe zones, and it kind of breaks the tension.)