Snooglebum

Why can't I enjoy System Shock 2?

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Wow, topic explosion. o_o

Thanks for the advice Sno, I'll try to replay the game with it, and hopefully not die.

I wish I had played those games (both SS's) when they came out. So lets say I wanted to have a more or less authentic experience and not turn off things like weapon degradation or respawning (although the latter bothered me a lot when I tried to play it). If I play on a lower difficulty settings, would I still have to minmax much? In other words, if I turn it on Easy, does it become more tolerant of mistakes? Because how the hell can I avoid mistakes on the first playthrough?

I played it on Easy and it was totally unforgiving, so...

And yes, fuck space monkeys. I don't remember how far I got, but I got to those bastards.

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The easier difficulties on System Shock 2 actually give you more cyber modules, so you do have more room for experimentation, but you still want to have a plan. You still have to specialize to be effective, and you need to know what you're specializing in, or things will just spiral out of control.

... Honestly though, I always felt that the game was quite easy on its easy difficulty.

Okay, but in this game where resources are so precious and each individual action is so important, how do you have an ideal first playthrough? I don't think you can, i think the game is inadvertantly a bit trial and error. The game tries its very, very hardest to prepare you, there's an incredible interactive tutorial, and there are tool tips and tutorial prompts everywhere. It, however, doesn't successfully convey which things are important. You might assume that hacking is important because it's a cyberpunk game, but it's easy to overlook the importance of the maintenance skill. (Which is something the game itself clearly recognizes, with the higher than usual cyber module cost for that skill.)

Which is not to say that the game is rigid either, there is not one sole effective build that you have to follow, i think the systems in that game afford a wealth of replayability. It's more just that everything interacts in really strange and unexpected ways, there's a lot of unconventional stuff in there, and you need to understand it before you can really take advantage of what the game offers. (This is, of course, where it breaks down for that first playthrough, since you need to take advantage of it before you understand it.)

To be fair, i think this also happens with many other RPG's that are thought of as difficult games.

As I recall, it was actually an official patch that allowed people to later the spawn rates.

It was the one official patch that enabled people to more finely mod the details of the game's difficulty by editing some of the files, yes.

That patch also added a crazy co-op mode.

Imagine how scarce the resources are in that game and divide them by half. You have to plan so closely with your buddy to make it work, you essentially have to be a laser focused hacker build with a laser focused soldier build watching your back.

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I can't believe that people are complaining about weapons degradation on the Far Cry 2 Idle Thumbs Podcast Network forums!

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It was the one official patch that enabled people to more finely mod the details of the game's difficulty by editing some of the files, yes.

No, they specifically added those two features in particular. From the official patch release notes:

"This patch implements cooperative multiplayer for System Shock 2. Up to four players are supported over internet or LAN. In addition, several bug-fixes and additional features are implemented including the ability for the user to modify weapon degradation and monster re-spawning rates. This patch is only intended for the original release of System Shock 2. If you have purchased a re- released "budget" edition, you should not need this patch."

SS2 is notoriously difficult, especially if you want to explore. If you're fine with running through the game as quickly as possible, then I guess constant spawning and high weapon degradation isn't THAT much of an issue (although I still struggled to be honest). What's more, even with the respawn turned to minimum (you can never actually set it to completely off -- some areas will always respawn baddies) that game still offers a great challenge.

Personally there are two reasons to play System Shock 2: The incredible atmosphere. The storyline. I was already so terrified while I was playing it, that reducing the spawn/degradation just made it bearable to play.

Finally: Don't forget the high-texture pack: http://www.systemsho....php?topic=22.0

Before:

slots_before.jpg

After:

slots_after.jpg

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Do you know if this works with the unofficial 2.4 patch? Cause that thing is great.

Probably. I was involved in that project and I remember the game being REALLY simplistically put together. It was extremely easy to extract and replace textures, so I doubt it would interfere with any game code, as we didn't have to alter anything.

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I have definitely never had to speed run through System Shock 2 to cope with the enemy respawn or the degradation. (I mean, I always pretty meticulously explore every corner of the ship and also usually end up doing loads of back-tracking for other tasks like the research goals.)

The patch always comes up like it's Irrational's acknowledgement of a fuck-up, but what does the patch not do? It doesn't actually adjust either of those mechanics, it simply enables the option to do so, and then still, not even in-game. The degradation and enemy respawn were unpopular design decisions and the hastily added functionality in that patch reflects only on the community's response to those mechanics.

I do not feel like the relative unpopularity of those mechanics invalidates the choices the designers made while developing that game. I hate the revisionism in people trying to push their own ideal version of that game. Entertainment is too subjective for that kind of shit, there needs to be some regard for the original intent.

They made a difficult, uncompromising, and unforgiving game that is completely aware of what it is. It expects for you to die and literally taunts you during some of the hardest parts of the game. The themes of its narrative are in step with its game design, it is scary both as a story and as a game. You just saw a ghostly phantom crying for help, then you listened to an unbelievably unnerving audio log depicting a gruesome murder, and now you think you hear an enemy coming up behind you, but you're low on ammunition and your gun is almost broken. It is a cacophony of terror.

I'm pretty sure we've already had this exact same disagreement at least once before though.

Shtup is a pretty nice mod though, you were involved with that?

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Okay, so I'm playing through again with Sno's advice.

This game has now become fucking awesome.

Just wanted to say that.

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Sno, thanks for taking the time and effort to post the stuff I otherwise would have to try and express <3

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I have definitely never had to speed run through System Shock 2 to cope with the enemy respawn or the degradation. (I mean, I always pretty meticulously explore every corner of the ship and also usually end up doing loads of back-tracking for other tasks like the research goals.)

You're clearly much better at SS2 than me, then. I've no idea why you think we're having an argument. As I already said, "I was already so terrified while I was playing it, that reducing the spawn/degradation just made it bearable to play."

Shtup is a pretty nice mod though, you were involved with that?

Yep, early on.

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Your initial comment stated that the game was "horribly unbalanced" because of the respawn. That, as well as general disdain for the degradation, are common sentiments about the game, and i just want to provide a counter point to it.

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Granted, it's been years and years since I've played it, but all this talk about how difficult it is and the weapon degradation and the respawns; I remember none of that ever being an issue. Well, I remember the respawns, but not in a bad light at all. Color me perplexed!

I should replay it sometime and find out.

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It's very manageable on normal, i feel. It can spin out of control if you don't have a handle on things, but if you have a good build plan, it's mostly fine.

SS2 on hard can be pretty fucked up, and i won't even touch impossible. (Receiving fewer cyber modules on the harder difficulties makes the difficulty curve feel like a receding goal. No matter how you spin things, you're underpowered. You need to just laser focus in on two or three things you want to be able to do well.)

Edit: I am incorrect, you don't receive fewer cyber modules, all of the upgrade costs are instead increased. Effectively the same thing.

Nanite costs are also increased all around.

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Your initial comment stated that the game was "horribly unbalanced" because of the respawn. That, as well as general disdain for the degradation, are common sentiments about the game, and i just want to provide a counter point to it.

Well, clearly, as I've already acknowledged several times -- thanks to you pointing it out -- it wasn't an issue for everyone. All that said, I'd love to know how you managed to play it so easily. I just got my ass handed to me repeatedly. I mean I barely made it out of the first few levels. It's possibly it's because I spent the entire game with my body pumped full of adrenaline, jumping out of my skin every single time something attacked me. (And I'm not really exaggerating all that much -- I was terrified playing that game... and then the spiders came. And I nearly died.)

I found BioShock to be much more balanced, but maybe I'm less of a wuss than I used to be? Or maybe that's just a different type of game?

Hmm. All this talk makes me want to load it up again and see if it's as scary/difficult as I remember it. I still have my original copy here somewhere B)

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The thing is that the term 'unbalanced' is usually seen as something that is objective, not subjective.

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Haha, nice :)

Yeah I should have said something like 'in my experience'. It definitely seems to be what is causing you guys to 'argue' at the moment anyway.

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Well I did place the words "I think" in front of the sentence, so I thought it was obviously just my opinion. That said, I'm glad I now know it IS possible to play the game as released -- even if I personally found it too difficult.

(I'd still love some tips, because I REALLY sucked at playing it.)

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I have pretty clear memories of finishing both 'Shocks before I even had reliable internet to read guides and such. I think it just boils down to being a system-optimising person with a high tolerance for trial and error. I think I restarted Shock 2 about 4 times before I got to the end.

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I'm pretty sure I will buy the game, get frustrated, then try to cheat, which will either make me hate the game or love the game. Since GOG is not Steam, I'm not sure whether to bother to wait for a sale.

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The RPS interview suggests that Night Dive will also be publishing SS2 on Steam. I'm not in a rush to play it either way (just got too much stuff I'm doing already) so we'll see what happens.

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I'm pretty sure I will buy the game, get frustrated, then try to cheat, which will either make me hate the game or love the game. Since GOG is not Steam, I'm not sure whether to bother to wait for a sale.

GOG's prices start at "pretty dang cheap", any discounts are marginal as a result, and sales are pretty irregular.

If you really want to purchase the game for like, 8$ instead of 10$, you may have to wait for a while.

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The RPS interview suggests that Night Dive will also be publishing SS2 on Steam. I'm not in a rush to play it either way (just got too much stuff I'm doing already) so we'll see what happens.

or just go to the night dive website. it outright says they will release it on steam. but gog will probably have some time of exclusivity on it since they are actively trying to get games like that back on sale, which steam is not.

(http://www.nightdivestudios.com/ -- 2013_02_10 Fear Me, Hacker: System Shock Franchise To Resurface With GOG/Steam Release)

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