Project Godus: Don't believe his lies

[Henroid]

To be honest most of my interest in what's happening has to do with the conduct of interviewer and interviewee. Like I asked Sean via Twitter if members of enthusiasm based press should leave their convictions and/or feelings at the door when doing interviews (I should have included "passions"), but maybe I should've made it a question for the podcast (via email).

 

Like I said with aggression / hostility, for me it's a fine line to walk. But I'm on my way out the door to work so I can't elaborate atm.

 

Oh I should post Sean's answer. Keep in mind it's in Twitter (140 characters) format.
 

when it butts up against being respectful to another person, but that's just a general life rule.

i get that walker feels like he's standing up for the customer who got "duped" but i think that's sort of a false indentity

for someone to take on. the best thing you can do for a customer is dig for information and you do that by being smart, not loud

[Ninety-Three]

My approach to the issue comes down to "It's okay to say something if it's accurate". Molyneux definitely has a pathology, he admitted in the interview that he can't help but get excited and promise things. And there's no question that he says a lot of things that turn out to not be true. From there it's just a question about intent. Some of Molyneux's falsehoods seem deliberate (in that the only explanation is either intent, or incompetence so grand that intent seems more likely [see: project deadlines, budget/publisher estimates, Linux port, etc]).

 

That makes "Do you think you're a pathological liar?" seem like a fair question to me.

 

EDIT: I didn't like some of this post, so I edited.

[ExitDose]

He was asked if he was a pathological liar to determine if he has a psychological disorder that leads him to do these things. At this point in Molyneux's career, that is entirely fair to ask.

[Twig]

lol this thread certainly is disgusting to read

[Architecture]

And the reason why it's a problem now is not because Godus is busted, because it is, but because everyone remembered that he promised a kid money and never came through. That's not 'development realities', that's straight-up breach of contract.

But the kid doesn't care. And it's not a breach of contract--the article says, "While Bryan is unable to discuss the terms of the deal, Eurogamer understands he was promised a royalty of one per cent of revenue from Godus for the period of his role as God of Gods."

 

Molyneux always under-delivers, but his unfailing optimism for what games can be is much better than listening to a disinterested Activision rep prattle on about Call of Duty's best-in-class anything.

[Apelsin]

lol this thread certainly is disgusting to read

 

Indeed.

[ExitDose]

But the kid doesn't care. And it's not a breach of contract--the article says, "While Bryan is unable to discuss the terms of the deal, Eurogamer understands he was promised a royalty of one per cent of revenue from Godus for the period of his role as God of Gods."

 

Molyneux always under-delivers, but his unfailing optimism for what games can be is much better than listening to a disinterested Activision rep prattle on about Call of Duty's best-in-class anything.

Is what he does in the context of promoting a product considered optimism? It seems to me that an ethical line is being crossed. He's not talking generally about the future of games, but specifically about the products that he is selling/promoting. In the past it was something to laugh off, but he's now doing that with a Kickstarter campaign. A substantial exchange of money took place. Those people are owed straight answers, not a bunch of lies and half-truths. Hell, they were owed that before he took their money.

[BusbyBerkeley]

I'm kind of baffled that people have any affection for Molyneux. I thought he was widely regarded as a joke at this point. He continues to shoot for the stars and make less than stellar games and somehow people keep giving him money. I first knew of him around the time the first Fable game was coming out and I remember reading the previews and then the actual reviews and how far apart they were. Then he kept on doing it. There's optimism and then there's delusion. It's fun when someone talks about how great the game they are making will be. it's less fun when they continue to do so in the face of massive amounts of evidence pointing to the contrary.

[dartmonkey]

For me the whole problem here is that he's moved on to some new game. Delays, problems, etc, are to be expected but by abandoning the project, stripping down the dev team and starting some new game, he's sending entirely the wrong message. I guess there's financial pressure but I think this whole thing would go away if he just doubled down and did the damn work. Without it, I don't think The Trial has any chance whatsoever after such an erosion of trust and goodwill.

[Henroid]

What happens next is pretty much what will determine if what he had to say is true or not. I predict with 99% certainty that 22 Cans will have its major focus put back on Godus, but the end result can vary. If any features get cut, Molyneux will catch even more hell, doubled since even in this John Walker interview he's swearing up and down the wall that Godus will be completed with all features intact. People who don't like Molyneux to begin with will metaphorically crucify him. Which is taking it too far. But if the game does get 'finished' without all its promised features, yeah, Molyneux has to just own up to it.

 

Again I've never had a strong opinion about Molyneux one way or the other. I'm just fascinated with what's happening in the moment.

[elmuerte]

When reading the RPS interview were Moly was explaining the Godus project setup I had the odd feeling that I've read that before. And I have, almost 20 years ago a newly founded studio with the slogan "Design is Law". The studio in name was Ion Storm, and the Godus' like project was Daikatana. It's the same failure, the difference is just the party who delivered the money.

For those who don't know. Daikatana was supposed to be the quick buck project for Ion Storm so that they could gather some income while working on their larger more ambitions project. Daikatana was supposed to be out of the door in 7 months, but eventually took 3 years. The goals were way too ambitious, too much things to be done, gameplay which did not work out too well, etc. etc.

[Merus]

But the kid doesn't care. And it's not a breach of contract--the article says, "While Bryan is unable to discuss the terms of the deal, Eurogamer understands he was promised a royalty of one per cent of revenue from Godus for the period of his role as God of Gods."

 

Molyneux always under-delivers, but his unfailing optimism for what games can be is much better than listening to a disinterested Activision rep prattle on about Call of Duty's best-in-class anything.

 

It might not be breach of contract, but at least in Australia you'd be hard pressed to say that it was a legitimate contract if you promise someone income based entirely on a condition you have no obligation to fulfil. I'd imagine the UK would take a similarly dim view on that.

 

I think your other point, that Molyneux is better than a Call of Duty PR person, is a false equivalency. We don't need to choose between these two people: we choose between them, and Anita Sarkeesian, and Sean Vanaman, and Sophie Houlden, and so on and so on and so on. We have no shortage of great, interesting, talented people who deserve oxygen more than Molyneux.

[Gwardinen]

No other developer has anywhere near the track record of making shit up about the game they're working on, in part because no-one else gets away with making mea culpas after every game they release.

 

I might make an argument for Todd Howard, but that is mostly only noticed by die hard Elder Scrolls fans.

 

The RPS interview gave me a very conflicted morning yesterday. As a longtime fan of Molyneux, I was saddened to see him so stressed and backed into a corner and so clearly unhappy with his place in the industry. I genuinely believe he wants to make great games, and that he really does get excited about his projects and want to share them, but at this point his track record is undeniable. The last great game concepts he had were two generations ago, and even those games (thinking of Fable and Black & White) were absolutely riddled with problems. Everything since has been a poor execution on a not particularly excellent premise.

 

That said, my reaction to that situation is mostly melancholy, not anger. I can understand the frustration of those who backed him on Kickstarter, who might feel cheated now, and I think that's a valid reaction. But I also think that in their own way they were failing in exactly the manner in which Molyneux fails - letting their optimism triumph over their better judgement.

 

On the other hand, games "journalism" (and I use scare quotes not at all snidely - I would love to have John Walker's job, I just also try to stay realistic about the state of it currently) so rarely asks real questions and actually holds people to account that I can't help but feel like this interview was worth having, even if it is itself imperfect. All too often are gaming news outlets mostly just comfortably walking along with PR asking only the questions they know have prepared answers about upcoming games. Even the idea of covering games that have already come out and looking back at their development with a critical eye has only been getting traction relatively recently. So I'm glad that some reporting like this exists, even if I think John Walker's tone was not great. Then again, phone interviews are hard and my own point is that this is not something games journalists do very much, so one can understand where his own lack of experience might have come into play.

[Jutranjo]

I think your other point, that Molyneux is better than a Call of Duty PR person, is a false equivalency. We don't need to choose between these two people: we choose between them, and Anita Sarkeesian, and Sean Vanaman, and Sophie Houlden, and so on and so on and so on. We have no shortage of great, interesting, talented people who deserve oxygen more than Molyneux.

I dunno about oxygen, maybe media exposure? Or development funding?

 

Godus is just such a trainwreck, at least Broken Age is an actual adventure game as was pitched in the kickstarter. Godus went from God Game RTS to F2P mobile crap. The no publisher for kickstarter gave most people hope since they devs wouldn't be dependant on anyone making insane calls on stuff like multiplayer server architecture or making IAP a thing or porting the game to mobile before PC.

[Merus]

I dunno about oxygen, maybe media exposure? Or development funding?

 

Oh, this is a somewhat uncommon metaphor - by 'oxygen' I mean things like media exposure and development funding and prestige and support and basically all the things that a career as an artist needs to live. I do not mean that Peter Molyneux is a waste of literal air - at the very least, he has a family, and I assume he's precious to them, even though I wouldn't be surprised if he's been promising his kids they'll go to Disneyland next year for the past decade.

[Deadpan]

On the other hand, games "journalism" so rarely asks real questions and actually holds people to account that I can't help but feel like this interview was worth having, even if it is itself imperfect.

 

The problem I have with this view is that the interview feels all too much like retroactively beating up Molyneux for hype that RPS themselves have been actively complicit in producing. They may always present those earlier interviews with a wink and a nudge about taking this with a grain of salt, cause you know how it is with silly old Peter, but that doesn't seem to make up for just how much time they devote to talking about how hypothetically interesting all those ideas were, should they come to pass. If you think somebody lies so consistently about everything that you need to accuse him of that right of the bat, maybe stop helping him spread those lies? The interview feels like a way to get angry at Molyneux for 30 years of broken promises without having to consider your own responsibility in continuing to fund and cover the man.

 

Then again, phone interviews are hard and my own point is that this is not something games journalists do very much, so one can understand where his own lack of experience might have come into play.

 

I don't know how he led those other interviews, but Walker previously took that same aggressive style to Jason Rohrer and Jeffrey Yohalem to great success. The main difference seems to be that those interviews circled around Walker's understanding of Far Cry 3 and The Castle Doctrine - matters of interpretation tied to specific examples - while this circles around his understanding of how games are made, which quickly turns out to be a little flimsy, and then leads to increasingly petulant questions about why he can't give an exact schedule for his game even though nobody else in the world can, either. And what was he doing in that fancy hotel when there was work to do anyway!?

 

Large parts of this read entirely too much like GG "grilling" journalists with questions about lacking objectivity, publisher bribes or secret cabals. Those questions are hard to address for sure, but not because they're particularly insightful, more because they're so mean-spirited and uninformed.

[Gwardinen]

The interview feels like a way to get angry at Molyneux for 30 years of broken promises without having to consider your own responsibility in continuing to fund and cover the man.

 

True, but honestly everyone has been complicit in that for so long now that even if they'd started ten years ago that argument would still be valid. At some point you just have to start.

 

The main difference seems to be that those interviews circled around Walker's understanding of Far Cry 3 and The Castle Doctrine - matters of interpretation tied to specific examples - while this circles around his understanding of how games are made, which quickly turns out to be a little flimsy, and then leads to increasingly petulant questions about why he can't give an exact schedule for his game even though nobody else in the world can, either.

 

This is also a good point, and something I felt while reading the interview. Walker at a certain point just started banging on the idea that Molyneux's experience should have allowed him to see all these problems coming, which isn't really fair. Godus' setbacks are not really the thing that Molyneux should be held accountable for, so much as his reaction to them and relationship to his backers. It's that last part that is what lets me give Walker the benefit of the doubt a little - it's ok to an extent to grill Molyneux because he took public money. It's in the interests of the public to know whether he defrauded them, deliberately or not.

 

I still don't really like how he asked some of the questions, but I feel like many of them were questions that should be asked. It took some pretty heavy press beating to get people to stop trusting Denis Dyack and Silicon Knights. Given that the wink-nudge-pinch-of-salt routine that Molyneux's been given over the last couple of decades has apparently not been enough to stop people from investing hundreds of thousands of dollars with him, stronger measures would seem to be needed. It's just a shame that it's happening to a guy who seems genuinely nice and enthusiastic and creative.

[Arathain]

The interview is a very difficult, uncomfortable read. But while there's no doubt John was aggressive, I think it's being over-emphasized. Notably, Molyneaux does almost all the talking. John is.. well, honest about how he intends to conduct the interview from the off. PM talks himself in these lengthy, confused, rambly circles. He contradicts himself even in the course of the interview. His astonishing lack of competence is bizarre and surreal. Dismissing that good project management in game design is even possible is an insult to all well organised projects.

[Arathain]

This is also a good point, and something I felt while reading the interview. Walker at a certain point just started banging on the idea that Molyneux's experience should have allowed him to see all these problems coming, which isn't really fair. Godus' setbacks are not really the thing that Molyneux should be held accountable for, so much as his reaction to them and relationship to his backers. It's that last part that is what lets me give Walker the benefit of the doubt a little - it's ok to an extent to grill Molyneux because he took public money. It's in the interests of the public to know whether he defrauded them, deliberately or not.

\

Even, for example, promising a Linux version that the chosen engine explicitly doesn't and couldn't support? Can't we have accountability for that? Or when an industry veteran claims a project will take 7 months and ends up taking multiple years? Or raising money promising you'll avoid a publisher and getting a publisher a few months later?

 

I think the Gamasutra response posted above, and many of the comments, were generous. It's not asking all that much for 22cans to do better.

[Twig]

Or when an industry veteran claims a project will take 7 months and ends up taking multiple years? Or raising money promising you'll avoid a publisher and getting a publisher a few months later?

Oh yeah these sort of things never happen in the industry never ever Molyneux's definitely the first and only high-profile game developer to fuck up to this degree!

[Gaizokubanou]

It might not be breach of contract, but at least in Australia you'd be hard pressed to say that it was a legitimate contract if you promise someone income based entirely on a condition you have no obligation to fulfil. I'd imagine the UK would take a similarly dim view on that.

 

That's one hell of confusing sentence

 

You agree that it might not be breach of contract, BUT that it would be hard to argue that it was a legitimate contract???

 

BTW the situation regarding that winner should be looked at through sweepstake regulations, which is completely different from contract and the laws regarding it varies a lot (hence you see why lot of sweepstakes and contests are region limited).

[Mawd]

I'm all for challenging interviews. Confrontational ones even. But when your interview starts to go in circles and things are feeling nasty something should change to break that pattern. Even if its just a reprieve before heading back into the previous issue. 

 

Also I did end up thinking that the idea of Walker or another RPS staffer checking out or being embedded into 22cans would be a far more interesting find than that interview.

It left me with a bad impression of both parties. Which was a bit uncomfortable since RPS has been my almost sole form of sustenance for the past five years.

[mikemariano]

RPS has been my almost sole form of sustenance for the past five years.

 

Me, too!  But I killfiled Walker in all forms years ago.  I would rather not be on the Internet at all than read anything by him.  Try it!

[malkav11]

I have mixed feelings about the whole thing. I agree that Walker was too aggressive and hostile-feeling, and there are some things I think he got wrong (for example, it's been slightly over 2 years since Godus funded, not 3 as he kept repeating), but there are some places where Molyneux is clearly breaking promises made during the Kickstarter and that's not okay. Generally speaking, they seem to mostly be things he should never have promised in the first place, or not in the fashion he did, like Linux support or not working with a publisher, and he really should have asked for more money, particularly since he knows all his projects run long. All of them. At the same time, there's a lot of stuff that's just...well, that's how development works and/or how Kickstarter works. Projects go over schedule and over budget. Partners and middleware vendors fail to come through on stuff you needed from them or make changes that break things on your end. People  Molyneux isn't wrong about that stuff, and while it's frustrating, it's not really something he can personally be held accountable for except in the sense that he's clearly not great at project management and should probably have hired someone else to take that on. Nor do I get the sense that Molyneux was deliberately setting out to defraud anyone. His mouth just invariably writes checks he can't cash. It happens during the interview, even! (There's no way things will be shipshape by Easter, for example.) And while I generally feel like refunds should be an option, I don't think people are necessarily owed one until the project's promises are either explicitly or implicitly abandoned. I.e., radio silence or no actual progress on them for long enough that clearly nobody's actually pursuing them, neither of which seem to be the case with Godus -yet-.

 

Generally I just don't think Molyneux and Kickstarter or the press are good combinations and I tend to think he should avoid both in future. For his own sake as much as ours. Can't overpromise if you're not making public statements, and if you're funding through traditional models, publishers and the like have ways of actually holding you to account on your use of their money. Kickstarter backers, not so much.

[SiN]

Oh yeah these sort of things never happen in the industry never ever Molyneux's definitely the first and only high-profile game developer to fuck up to this degree!

 

.... yes? I mean, I really can't think of a fuck-up bigger than being pitched "The Next God Game by Peter Molyneux" and being delivered a click-fest F2P game by DeNA.

 

I have never, ever minded Molyneux hyping bits of his game. "And then you zoom into the apple, and there's a worm coming out of it" was and is charming as hell. I love it. But this isn't that. This is taking peoples money based on a pitch, and then delivering basically the opposite of that. How much money would 22cans have raised if they pitched "A Mobile-First, F2P God game by Peter Molyneux"?