Sean

Idle Book Club Episode 5: The Great Gatsby

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It isn't available in public domain, though this is a link that will allow you to get it legally let you get it as an ebook through more questionable means. You just need Calibre to convert it from HTML.

It is in the public domain, actually.

Edit: In my country, and most of the world. In the US it becomes public domain in 2021. Yay, America.

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Now that I've actually re-read the book for the first time since HS, you know who would have made a really good film version? David Lynch.

The book uses so much dream-logic—narrative contrivances, strangely disjointed coversations, implicit violence under the surface—that he would be a great fit. Granted, Luhrmann's operatic approach may solve many of the same issues, but in doing so strip them of their strangeness that's a distinctive mark of the book. What a weird novel.

I wasn't particularly entranced by the content or themes, though. It's funny that all the metaphors that I was bewildered by years ago are now painfully clear and explicit in the novel itself, to the point of coming off as ham-handed more often than not. I'm old enough now to appreciate the pain in learning it's impossible to resurrect the past, but Fitzgerald's embodiment of that theme didn't add much outside of linking it to the American drive to ascend to higher social classes and throw aside the circumstances of your birth too.

I can understand why everyone reads it in high school—it's Important, Clear, and Short—but it's waaaay out of what I'd consider if we want to start picking Great American Novels. ( Warlock by Oakley Hall is my current favorite candidate.)

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Randomly saw this posted in Salon today: http://www.salon.com/2013/01/09/was_nick_carraway_gay/

Don't necessarily agree with the author's interpretation. I think modern readers too often want to see sexual subtext that just doesn't exist or is their unintentionally (essays written about Holmes and Watson's sexual relationship, for example), but I still enjoyed reading the article.

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When I heard "And I'm Nick Breckon" I totally thought it was a recording. I nearly fell out of my chair when he continued to talk.

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The description urges us to "don a pink sear-sucker" which is either some sort of terrifying command or a misidentification of seersucker suits, but now that is has finished downloading I will give it a listen at some point and hear what Congrats Nick and the crew have to say about this wonderful book!

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Another great cast, one that's making me reconsider my earlier judgment. :D

I'd agree that the symbolism is less omnipresent than it seemed in high school, given that so much of my effort then was dedicated to sifting the symbols out of the book. Like you said, it was an artifact of how they were teaching the novel, but I think it was also because I just wasn't skilled at recognizing symbolism or anything above plot-level elements at that stage, and so had to work at it a lot more. Their more straightforward nature worked against them in my re-read, though you guys brought up some great points about how their depiction-as-symbols within the book is so often complicated by the context. (And if you guys loved the book's self-awareness about symbolism and encoded meaning, you are in for a trip with Lot 49!)

You guys mentioned how Fitzgerald did a lot better job with brevity compared to Telegraph Avenue, talking about his pithy sentences, but I think he deserves equal credit for how he plays around with compressing time. With so much of our fiction-consumption informed by television and movies, it's a lot rarer today to see a novelist skilled at elision of events, often sweeping forward in time mid-paragraph. John Williams deployed it wonderfully in his main three novels, and Edward P. Jones takes it to a whole new level in his own writing. Chabon seemed stuck in a cinematic mode, and Fitzgerald rivals Sense of an Ending's first section when it comes to leaping around in recollection.

Again, wonderful stuff and great to have all four of y'all in the mix.

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You guys mentioned how Fitzgerald did a lot better job with brevity compared to Telegraph Avenue, talking about his pithy sentences, but I think he deserves equal credit for how he plays around with compressing time. With so much of our fiction-consumption informed by television and movies, it's a lot rarer today to see a novelist skilled at elision of events, often sweeping forward in time mid-paragraph. John Williams deployed it wonderfully in his main three novels, and Edward P. Jones takes it to a whole new level in his own writing. Chabon seemed stuck in a cinematic mode, and Fitzgerald rivals Sense of an Ending's first section when it comes to leaping around in recollection.

Again, wonderful stuff and great to have all four of y'all in the mix.

I thought Wiggins was absolutely masterful at this in last month's novel.

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I was really looking forward to this episode and man it did not disappoint.

Regarding the fruitlessness of a labeling something as a 'great American novel,' fair point! That's usually how people frame their discussions of this novel, and it probably does detract from how the reader should critically approach it. After rereading the book, I certainly have a better understanding of why it's still considered a classic, and the praise that was heaped on it during the podcast kind of makes me want to reread it a third time, maybe with a little bit more of an open-mind (because if I'm being completely honest with myself, I went in to rereading this book expecting to dislike it, and that's a horrible why to read something).

You guys didn't really talk about Daisy/Jordan and I'd be curious to hear what your opinions are of them. I suppose that they're both relatively minor characters, but I actually found myself empathizing with them more so than with Gatsby or even Nick.

I continue to enjoy this podcast because it really helps me get over some of prejudices about literature that I learned in high school and than later ossified while I was in college. It's really helping me to become a better reader, so, good job for that.

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You guys didn't really talk about Daisy/Jordan and I'd be curious to hear what your opinions are of them. I suppose that they're both relatively minor characters, but I actually found myself empathizing with them more so than with Gatsby or even Nick.

I regret not talking more about Jordan in particular, because I find her a really fascinating character. Daisy is in a lot of ways the nexus of all the action of the story, but Jordan almost feels like a totally incidental character. Except that you do get the sense that she and Nick really do have a pretty substantial relationship, which is always really crazy to me! With respect to Nick's narrating, Jordan falls somewhere in the middle of the spectrum defined by Nick's complete attention (Gatsby) and casual brushing aside (his daily work life). She is clearly a bigger part of his life than is reflected by the attention he gives her in the retelling.

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Great cast, guys. Good to hear Nick again and glad to see a little levity leaking in for this book, at least.

Regarding the car symbolism, this might be an over-historicization, but cars had only been available since the turn of the century, almost as long as Fitzgerald had been alive. Nowadays, with the car a ubiquitous object for all, we of course think of the wheels coming off as an obvious metaphor. For a society that had only known the automobile for two decades and was still very fresh in the public consciousness, I wonder what the effect would have been.

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I was lucky enough to escape this novel in high school, so it was much easier to accept this book at face value. Reading this on my own terms - oblivious to curriculum-mandated metaphors, and rapidly approaching Nick Carraway's age - felt like the perfect time.

I was more in love with the storytelling more than the story itself (such beautiful economy!), but it really did pay off wonderfully near the end, where an apparent blank slate of a narrator found a voice of his own. The "I'm thirty" moment really resonated, almost uncomfortably so, and had me staring at the ceiling at 2am, hours after finishing that amazing final page.

That kind of reaction can't be downplayed. It is pretty great.

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Hah. Arnold Rothstein is a major character in Boardwalk Empire. What a weird link.

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I'll have to read this book finally, I never have (educated in french). I did read Alabama Song, by Gilles Leroy, which won the Goncourt prize for 2007, which is a fictional autobiography of Zelda Fitzgerald, though much of it is based on fact.

I think that it is interesting how Fitzgerald's wife (Zelda) says that Fitzgerald stole ideas and writing from her diaries. She also paints a horrible picture of Ernest Hemingway and goes so far as to say that Hemingway and her husband were intimate. She did however spend a lot of time in mental institutions.

Crazy couple!

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Great cast, guys. Good to hear Nick again and glad to see a little levity leaking in for this book, at least.

Regarding the car symbolism, this might be an over-historicization, but cars had only been available since the turn of the century, almost as long as Fitzgerald had been alive. Nowadays, with the car a ubiquitous object for all, we of course think of the wheels coming off as an obvious metaphor. For a society that had only known the automobile for two decades and was still very fresh in the public consciousness, I wonder what the effect would have been.

I would imagine that cars are meant to symbolize the new technological modernity that was forcing itself on to America at the beginning of the 20th century. You see trains used in similar ways in Russian literature, where the train was meant as a symbol of the scary and destructive power of the future (it's no coincidence that Anna Karenina uses a train to commit suicide, just like I think it's no coincidence that someone is killed by a car in this novel). The wheel coming off the car shows how little control people have over this new technology and how unknowably dangerous it can be (and it also indirectly shows what a terrible idea drunk driving is).

The vehicular murder part of the story was actually that point I had the hardest time believing. I was completely willing to accept that no one would show up to Gatsby's funeral, that he was the type of man to surround himself with people but form no real connections, but the idea that Daisy/Gatsby accidentally kill Tom's mistress (in Tom's car no less!) was a little bit too much.

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Hah. Arnold Rothstein is a major character in Boardwalk Empire. What a weird link.

Yeah I was thinking this while listening to the discussion. Rothstein in Boardwalk is almost literally the same person as Wolfsheim, but the portrayal of Rothstein seems more honest, in that he has all the same characteristics and the same history, but he is portrayed like an actual person and not a cartoonish stereotype.

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I did read the Sun also rises and Gatsby within a month of each other last.

Both of them deal with "rich white people problems" or more accurately rich people and people who spend time with rich people (which both narrators are). In both books the richer you are the more screwed up your life especially in dealing with other people -the women in particular whose romantic relationships are the cause of alot of conflict in the books. In both books being rich allows you to do whatever you want cause you will still have money ( or the ability to leave at the drop of a hat) to deal with any problems.

Also tremendous amounts of drinking - it seems that the people in these books could not have a social gathering without getting plastered.

Didn't know that Gatsby was responsible for the phrase "the great American novel",

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The Sun Also Rises is one of my favourite novels. Now THERE'S a recommendation for a future bookcast.

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Another great cast. Love hearing Nick back. Hope you squeezed him for a regular cast.

I wasn't assigned this book in high school, and I feel like two of the main themes, class and the regret/longing for lost time seem very hard for a 15/16 year old to really appreciate.

I don't think the line "I'm 30" is coincidental. It's an age where you can really see what those class divisions mean as an outsider. Where you reach a point you realize those thing will never be that fluid. The depth pf Wilson's rage at how thoroughly Tom has humiliated him. Not only has he slept with his wife with total disregard, but that he could also never provide the things she desired.

I disagree about the empty funeral being a stretch. Gatsby, to the old money was a gadfly. A socialite life of the party, but never really in the club. When the party ended they moved on.

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I like that Greg Brown is basically the unseen third/fourth/fifth Thumb by this point. All that's missing is the endearing nickname.

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