Chris

The Idle Book Club 1: The Sense of an Ending

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Did you think his telling was interesting? Or fleshed out, at all? It really didn't seem that way to me.

It was as fleshed out as one could expect of a 40-year old memory. Making it more detailed would break the fiction of the world, not to mention bogging the book down with unnecessary fluff. Because it only touches on what he thinks is important, the entire story is cut down to the minimum of what is necessary to convey the emotional weight of the story.

The book isn't meant to convey the experiences he had when he was in school, just to convey his memories of those experiences and how those memories change. Stepping outside of those bounds would make it, if nothing else, a very different book. Perhaps you would have liked it better, but the intent would have been different.

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I love the narration in this book. Barnes put an immense amount of care into Tony and his voice, and it was a pleasure to read because of it.

This! Tony had a really well fleshed-out voice and I never felt like I was reading the memoirs of a fictional character, it always felt very real to me. I thought the ending was very satisfying in that Barnes' tasks you with going back and re-evaluate a lot of what you'd read instead of spelling it out entirely.

I still am confused what Veronica meant when she replied

blood money. Is the implication that she blames her mother for Adrian's suicide?

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Not everything has to make you reconsider your life or do something completely unique to be considered quality. Something can simply just be good.

Those aren't my words, they're the words in some of the user reviews someone linked. And I didn't think it was good.

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I really enjoyed this, and am glad that the forthcoming Bookcast brought it to my attention. As soon I turned the last page I instantly began to consider and reconsider the book's events and how it all interrelated. I enjoyed the posthumous mental engagement.

I still am confused what Veronica meant when she replied

blood money. Is the implication that she blames her mother for Adrian's suicide?

Did Veronica suspect that Tony and her mother were somehow in cahoots to sever the relationship between Adrian and V just enough for her mother to destroy it all?

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The criticism about "showing and not telling" makes me think of how the book reads as a satire of the type of story where everything happens in the narrator's head

If the book was about showing, it wouldn't be about Tony, it would be about Veronica, who has lived a far more challenging and interesting life (the kind worth telling stories about.) In her story, Tony plays a very small role.

But Tony thinks he's the protagonist, so despite the fact that he hardly goes anywhere and barely does anything, he has to tell his story. And in the end, he still has not escaped his ego-centrism, absurdly assuming responsibility for things that were never really about him.

Our internal struggles and journeys do not matter much outside of our heads.

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But Tony thinks he's the protagonist

To me, one of the really important bits of this book is that we are all like this. We all inevitably frame the world and everything that happens to us as if we're the center of those things, even if we don't consciously believe that to be the case. I think as humans it's our responsibility to try and develop a sense of empathy that will allow us to better see the world through the eyes of others, and to see other people as fully and complexly as we see ourselves, even though it is impossible to ever entirely achieve that.

I think, because it is capable of exploring interior lives more fully than other forms of narrative expression, fiction is among the best tools we have for improving that capability.

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I assume anyone reading this thread has finished the book and will dispense with using spoiler tags in the following. Caveat lector!

So, I finished The Sense of an Ending. It was short, but so packed with ideas and layers that I doubt I’ll be able to fully encapsulate the experience in words. Rather, I’ll just put down a few scattershot thoughts.

The first thing is that I thought Veronica was being more than a little unfair in her treatment of Tony. She is constantly telling him that he’ll never understand and pretends like he is insensitive and incapable of reading her emotions. Whereas the root of the problem turns out to be that he didn’t know that Adrian and Veronica’s mother had a child together. This is a factoid Tony couldn’t have known, so it’s strange Veronica treats him as if he should have been able to ‘feel’ his way to this truth. I don’t feel like drawing the conclusion that it’s a failing of the book since part of the story hinges on Tony’s perceived simple nature, but like to view it more as Veronica being a needlessly difficult fruitcake.

I was pretty shocked by the transition between part one and two. The first part is all about boys gearing up for their lives to begin and then bam, it’s retirement time! The story skips Tony’s entire adult life and that is a powerful punch. Like the boys, I too am still in the familiar ‘waiting for life to truly start’ mindset, so suddenly arriving at the end gave me a nasty feeling. Having said that, the continuation of the story offers the thought that even at an old age, you are still actually living. One may be old, but not living is a choice made at every point in your life, not something done once and then regretting ever after.

Tony’s main thought about his life seems to be that he’s ‘peaceable’ and seeks stability and safety and shies away from adventure. He calls himself average, though I find that term far too contextual to use – after all on a school of brilliant people, being a genius is average. The book doesn’t draw any stern conclusion on whether this way of living is preferable. Tony seems to have liked his life quite well, even if there are some nibbles of doubt here and there. I don’t think anyone will be able to escape that. I for one don’t seek an all too adventurous life either, being rather fearful and sensitive, but neither do I subscribe to the idea that have a ‘peaceable’ existence is necessarily dull or unfulfilling. Life is far too extravagant and multicolored, and people too, to draw any conclusion on what is the best life. Some people want to crush their enemies, see them driven before them and hear the lamentations of their women, others find deep fulfillment from tending their garden every day. Tony doesn’t reach a conclusion either way, but he doesn’t seem to mind all that much.

What I really liked was how the whole book facilitates thinking about it in deeper layers than just the actual story. The short snippets that comprise it, the playful jumping up and down the timeline, the interfering thoughts; they make it easier to see the connection of the themes on an emotive level. It made me happy that the book doesn’t push the plot harder, or puts more emphasis on things like the twist at the end. If you take the twist as-is, as a narrative event, it’s cool but sudden and maybe a bit of a disappointment if that was what you were waiting for (I actually didn’t). But taken as a narrative device, it’s great, because it allows you to look back at everything that happened and figure out what it was really about. For the third of fourth time, everything changes. It illustrates how shifting the quagmire of memory is, how subjective the story of our life. It encourages thinking about your own life’s story.

I don’t really have negative things to say about this book. Its themes certainly affected me and I like how it depicts older people as still being people, and not just caricature grandparents who have lost their passions. Having said that, the book didn’t touch me profoundly. That’s not always necessary though, it was very pleasant reading The Sense of an Ending and I was able to enjoy the book on many levels. I suspect rereading it will offer additional insights.

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I think that as the bookcast progresses the reading level of the books should progress with it. Like for this first episode I would have preferred something more on my level, like Green Eggs & Ham, or a Sarah Palin book.

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I just finished reading this last night, and then went and re-read the first chapter this morning. I'm still trying to wrap my head around what actually happened. Is it even knowable?

When's the book podcast? I'm dying to listen to three bright guys discuss this for an hour (or two).

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To me, one of the really important bits of this book is that we are all like this. We all inevitably frame the world and everything that happens to us as if we're the center of those things, even if we don't consciously believe that to be the case. I think as humans it's our responsibility to try and develop a sense of empathy that will allow us to better see the world through the eyes of others, and to see other people as fully and complexly as we see ourselves, even though it is impossible to ever entirely achieve that.

I think, because it is capable of exploring interior lives more fully than other forms of narrative expression, fiction is among the best tools we have for improving that capability.

This whole thing reminds me of this.

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Highly readable example of great first-person storytelling. Knew nothing about the book beforehand and was excited to see where the story went after the big jump in the second half.

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I finished the book a couple of weeks ago, and so my memory of it is already becoming disjointed, but I wanted to put in some thoughts here. I was rooting for Tony for most of the book, but as it progressed, he became more and more selfish. I finally figured that Tony is not someone to aspire too. Take how he treats Jack. He considers Jack to be worthless and so he treats him that way. We only see Jack through Tony's eyes and because Tony doesn't try to make any real connection with Jack, we don't get to understand him either.

Tony is the perfect example of an untrustworthy narrator. He claims that he just wants to be peaceable with everyone, but he really has trouble having any meaningful relationship. Who does he have in the end? His ex-wife? His daughter? I wouldn't really call either of them close to him. There are his two friends from school that he lost contact with, and there's Veronica. Really, he has no one. What he does have are his memories. He has a certain fondness for the mother of his ex-girlfriend, but is the mother someone whom we should be fond of? The mom ultimately betrays her daughter. Maybe that's why the family seemed to be split. They knew that the mom was an adulterer, but Tony couldn't figure it out.

Again, I can't think of more to say other than it was a great read, and it's length definitely leads to the possibility of rereading it again.

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Going to start talking about this pre-cast as I just finished a couple of days ago and have been mulling some things over.

As a late-late-twenty something a lot of this book hits hard. Will I look back on these and following years as comfortable and mature? Or will I remember them as safe and cowardly? When my friends get together we reminisce about the "crazy times!" in college and when we studied abroad (London, as chance would have it) will we reminisce about these years as well? Do we already remember such recent events with rose tinted glasses? The middle of the book was full of these self-doubts and I think was the strongest section, lots of questions, light on answers.

The ending, and by that I mean "the twist" was almost unnecessary for me. I feel like he had shown so many different sides to the story already that it didn't need further muddling. Perhaps there's something about this that I'm overlooking? The book some too precisely written to me for this ending that seemed like a typical genre-fiction twist.

I like how, in my opinion, the boy's and later young-men's, philosophizing is portrayed. It comes across as incredibly immature but also fervently believed by the boys and later young-men. I wouldn't call it psuedo-philosophy as they obviously know their references, but at least theoretical philosophy being discussed without the experience of age to give weight to their beliefs. It reminded my of having "philosophical discussions" with my friends in highschool, which in hindsight must've been similarly stunted.

My favorite section in the book has to the memory of going to see the tide flow upriver. It struck me as absolutely the kindof thing you would suddenly remember years after the fact, when your memory starts cutting out the uninteresting stuff, but remains tied to some strong emotion that can still trigger it. It reminded me a lot of Eternal Sunshine for the Spotless Mind.

Thank you guys for the recommendation and discussion! Sorry for my rambling thoughts.

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Just finished it yesterday (and registered to talk about it!).

Overall, I really enjoyed it. Even factoring in its length, it was a pretty brisk read. In case I missed it somewhere, I want to make sure the writing itself is acknowledged, because it was really superb stuff. (Although I could have done with a little less heavy handed foreshadowing in the first portion, what with the constant "Well, this is how I remember it being," stuff.)

Tony got on my nerves at points, but I think the extent to which he over thought things was an important character trait, so I don't resent it. My favorite thing about him - to piggy-back on the discussion about everyone assuming they're the protagonist - was that even when he thought he had cracked Veronica's secret about her "son", he still only thought about it in terms of himself, and the letter he had written. She was right, he really just didn't get it.

Like owenjones, I'm in my late twenties and it had me reflecting not only on how these current years will be perceived when I'm old, but how I'm already remembering days gone by. Any book that has me thinking this deeply about myself is definitely worth a read.

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Much as I did enjoy the book ( particularly in its early going ) I thought its initial nostalgic regretful tone was suffocated under the weight of some misplaced guilt issues on the part of the protagonist and his (and the authors) queasy stumble towards the pedestrian and unnecessary denouement.

Barnes continues to produce these well intentioned but minor character pieces. Those that enjoyed this should read " Talking it over" one of his earlier works that this book brought to mind.

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Any update on the schedule for the first book show?

I recall you were originally planning to launch alongside the return of the regular show and new website. Are you still waiting for the new site to appear before starting?

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Oh shit, the piano version at the beginning.

I listened to it, good opening podcast. I was delighted at the discussion about Tinker Tailor, having seen only the film. Good that you feel you can branch off into other media if it's a valid discussion. I can equally relate to Chris deliberately arranging longer commutes to work to create reading time. For this and various other reasons, I had planned to do the exact same thing. Once I get a job somewhere, I will try not to live in the same city (note that Dutch cities are tiny and propped up next to each other) so I have to travel. That will hopefully mean more time for reading, a quieter and cheaper living location and that wonderful feeling of going places when you take the train every day.

Lastly, perhaps in an attempt not to scare away newcomers, or because the subject is books instead of video games, it seems this podcast is a lot more serious than the other. I'm not complaining! But is there a truth to it that you feel that you need to tackle this subject with a bit more severity than video games?

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Is it the piano version of the Video game song? I thought so too for a moment, but it seemed quite different in the end.

As for the episode, it was good but to be frank, the piano intro and Sean librarian husky voice put me off: it felt like you were adopting a more proper, uptight attitude because this was about Them Books, aka serious business. The tone didn't feel genuine at all to me for a couple of minute, but hopefuly, that awkwardness rubbed off after a while, and it went back to a relaxed and authentic flow. Still; I'm actually enjoying that there is none of the brain-farting that happens quite a lot on the main Podcast. I mean, it can super funny, but I find it sometimes overwhelming.

Also, I agree with Rodi; when the podcast turns into Idle 'Other Cultural Media' Podcast, it still felt very valuable; so don't restrain yourself on that aspect.

The stylists discussion was nice and it made me realize I still can't quite make up my mind about that.

My main tolerance treshold is that style and tricks should only be used to the extent that they do not remind the spectator/reader that he's having an experience by proxy. But beyond that, it's complicated.

On one on hand, I admire and support the finesse and restraint that are required to present the narrative elements as bare and as purely as possible. The intellecutal or emotional involvement required to bridge the distance to where the creator wanted to lead me is one of the thing I cherish most out of reading books and watching movies.

But on the other hand, I also find it priceless when a distinguished style allows me to pick inside a creator's head and be as close as his vantage point as possible - even more so when this vantage point is very peculiar.

For instance, I love the opening shot of Welles's Touch of Evil: it is not very subtle and there would probably be value in having more quiet camera work, acting , etc... but those carries with them connotations and tonal foreshadwoing that I don't think could be achieved otherwise.

I don't know... the cliché thing to say would be that, maybe the lack of visible style is a style in itself, like Kubrick clinical sobriety was a mark of the filmmaker: in Anderson's case, the restraint of The Master might be as self conscious as the lush camera work on Magnolia or Boogie Nights...

As a side note onTarantino, I think that he's plagued by an habit of re-using iconic styles purely for hommage sake rather than because his movies thematics actually require it.

The only time that I can digest those references is when I'm not at all versed in the original genres: in the case of Jacky Brown, there might be a huuuuge amount of references to Blaxploitation; but I can't see them - so it's fine.

The saving grace of Tarantino imo is that he's a genius at conversation writing and mise en scène: I hated most of Inglorious Basterds but I love the opening scene and the one in the underground café - they are small self-contained masterpieces.

It's also probably why Reservoir Dogs is my favorite of his movies, and another reason why Jacky Brown is a close second.

Anyway, good cast :tup: keep up the good work!

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On the subject of style and flourishes and showing off: I'm currently almost through The Thousand Autumns of Jacob de Zoet. I'm leaving judgment out in the open until after I've finished it, but let me say this: I love Mitchell's style. He rarely, if ever, describes a scene in formal sentences or paragraphs, but rather creates an image by a careful use of words. There's no filler, every sentence is valuable, valid, important. He will only often interject sentences and dialogue for small snippets of description, in this way:

"This may be an example sentence," a bird flies off the till into Jacob's face, "but it's still valid."

It's a good way to set the scene while maintaining the flow and expediency of the story. Mitchell is pretty consistent in this style, excepting a mere handful of passages where he suddenly goes apeshit and spends a whole chapter describing in the most visual, visceral language how it feels when Jacob is eating a goddamn piece of fruit. I hated that. It feels like him showing off: 'look at how graphic I can be with words!' The careful and deliberate tone of the book is capriciously exchanged for Miéville-esque fripperies.

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"This may be an example sentence," a bird flies off the till into Jacob's face, "but it's still valid."

Michael Chabon would have put an entire paragraph between the two bits of dialogue. I'm almost through The Amazing Adventures of Kavalier & Clay and while I quite like the book, that style of writing got tiresome really fast.

I was thinking of reading Vladimir Bartol's Alamut next, but I now may have to pick Cloud Atlas, instead. Both are sitting on my bookshelf. What is the schedule for the first and second cast? I can't listen to episode 0, at the moment?

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Alamut sounds like a really interesting story, not in the least because of unexpected Assassin's Creed ties!

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The back cover of the North Atlantic Book edition is the weirdest thing:

"If Osama bin Laden did not exist, Vladimir Bartol would have invented him." -L'Express

[...]

This Masterpiece, admired enough to be translated into nineteen languages, a bestseller throughout Western Europe, and an inspiration for video games ("The Secrets of Alamut" and the fothcoming "Assassin's Creed") has never had its moment in English. Now, thanks to a sparkling translation by Michael Biggins, Alamut is available to a whole new audience.

[...]

If you want to know how suicide bombers are being cultivated in Basra and Hebron even as you read these words, if you want to learn the true story behind the 72 virgins awaiting al-Qaeda's martyrs in paradise, Alamut is the training manual. Bartol tells us who those women are, how they got there, and why young men are willing to die for their company.

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I was thinking of reading Vladimir Bartol's Alamut next, but I now may have to pick Cloud Atlas, instead. Both are sitting on my bookshelf. What is the schedule for the first and second cast? I can't listen to episode 0, at the moment?

The schedule listed on the site is the first Friday of each month, so I'd guess that this first cast came early and we're reading Sense of an Ending this month and casting it on October 5th, and likewise reading Cloud Atlas in October and casting it on November 2nd.

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