Rob Zacny

Episode 183: Taking Command for Bull Run 2: Run Harder

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Bruce, Troy, and Rob discuss Take Command: 2nd Manassas and why it is one of the best tactical Civil War games ever made. Along the way they discuss what they want from wargames, mission structure, and how few games really address the real challenges of battlefield command. The group lapse into a Tim Stone-induced reverie as they discuss games that have dealt with command and control from the perspective of a Napoleon or Lee. Apologies for sound quality issues: Rob’s microphone was having a disastrous day.

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Tim Stone on Waterloo

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Speaking from the developer point of view (well, ok, *a* developer point of view), you tend to get campaign games rather than single battle games for two main reasons. Obviously, campaigns are expected, which does drive what developers tend to make; if you're pitching a game to a publisher, any way that game deviates from the expected formula is assumed by the publisher to cost sales.

The other reason you don't tend to get single-scenario games (and I believe this to be the larger reason) is that building a scenario is far cheaper and less time consuming than building the engine it runs in. Once the engine is built, there's a strong temptation as the developer to increase the apparent value of the game by adding scenarios, and once you're adding scenarios it becomes nearly inevitable that they will be strung into a narrative structure of some sort.

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Great episode, I think the "Take Command" series just nails everything I want in a wargame, specially the sequel "Scourge of War":

  • Taking the perspective of the commander.
  • Couriers take their time carrying orders to different units.
  • Using couriers to communicate with teammates.
  • Advancing/Retreating in combat.
  • Rotating units during combat feels great (concentrating fire is not the best option in most cases, keeping a battleline is crucial).
  • Marching to a destination takes time and quite a bit of organization.
  • Maneouver and coordination with teammantes.
  • Trusting the friendly AI, knowing its not min-maxing everything.

I just love when a game gives me a role and all mechanics are in place. If I'm commanding an entire front of a war I should not be able to micromanage every move of every division on a map to execute perfect orders, I consider the lack of information something essential a wargame should do more often (or in different ways).

There are just a couple of things that I don't like from this series:

  • The "Take Command" mechanic wich (for me) reduces the importance of couriers and fog of war.
  • The engine consumes all resources of my PC.

For more modern times I think the "Command Ops" series also takes into account the fog of war to an impressive level, but the feel of just watching a map makes it another beast.

Note: I bought the game on steam a year ago, but it appears the title is not available anymore. For some reason the steam version had some serious bugs and you would need to apply an "unnoficial patch" from MadMinute Games.

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Has anyone had any luck getting Tacke Command: Second Manassass to work in Vista? I missed this one, and it sounds awesome. I got the ad-supported version from Gamersgate, but it crashes on startup.

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Has anyone had any luck getting Tacke Command: Second Manassass to work in Vista? I missed this one, and it sounds awesome. I got the ad-supported version from Gamersgate, but it crashes on startup.

This is going to be a dumb question for me to ask, but have you tried right-clicking on the .exe and setting it to run in Windows XP SP3 compatibility mode?

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Was the first Hist War ever finished? I was under the impression that the first ended in alpha/beta.

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I'm glad Troy mentioned Crusader Kings II as an example of the fun to be had giving away control in a game. Besides my first game as an Irish duke, which had the benefit of wonder and discovery, hands down my most enjoyable CK2 campaign was as the Billung duke of Saxony. I wasn't exactly powerless, since I held the majority of northern Germany, but I definitely jumped when the emperor said so. I chose to play the perfect toady, helping him in all his wars and using the rewards to tempt fellow vassals to my banner. It was really cool to have my current ruler be appointed Senechal or Chancellor despite sub-optimal scores in the relevant skills, simply because I was on such great terms with my liege.

Of course, that fell apart after about two hundred years when the sudden and unprovoked revocation of my primary title forced me into revolt, but I think we can chalk that up to bad AI without disparaging the mechanics involved.

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Was the first Hist War ever finished? I was under the impression that the first ended in alpha/beta.

We really need to try this out, but we've been saying that forever around the 3MA watercooler. HistWar was vaporware until a really buggy release, and then I lost track of it completely. But I've heard tell that post-release, it was whipped into shape. I have no idea. We'll investigate. Anyone have hands-on with it? Does it work well?

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We really need to try this out, but we've been saying that forever around the 3MA watercooler. HistWar was vaporware until a really buggy release, and then I lost track of it completely. But I've heard tell that post-release, it was whipped into shape. I have no idea. We'll investigate. Anyone have hands-on with it? Does it work well?

I have it, but I haven't had time to play it as much as I'd like to. I didn't notice any bugs, though, and it definitely does seem worth playing. My impression was that of a more advanced version of TC/SoW, set in the Napoleonic Wars. From what I can tell, there's a very dedicated community, which has produced a number of mods and scenarios, and which runs multiplayer campaign games. I wish I had more time to play it properly.

I had been wondering why 3MA hasn't covered this yet, so maybe you should give it a try. :)

Btw, I agree with chouzar that Command Ops is somewhat similar to Take Command, and not just in the way it uses Fog of War. Like Take Command, it also has a proper command chain, as well as order delays, and the individual units have a great deal of autonomy. It's obviously a much different game, but probably the closest you'll get, if you want something similar, but modern (to the extent that WWII can be considered modern).

And to all the people who want to play Take Command, but can't find it, or can't get it to run, I recommend getting Scourge of War: Gettysburg instead. It's not quite a sequel, since it's produced by a different company (with only half the original developer team, IIRC), which doesn't hold the rights to Take Command, but it's very similar, and better in a number of ways. It obviously doesn't cover 2nd Manassas, though.

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Histwar got to a point where it was stable and it played ok, but for me the user interface was so obtuse, I spent more time wrestling with the oddities and nuances of the interface than I actually did playing out the manoeuvre warfare. It's very detailed in terms of uniform colours, and troop composition, but ultimately the fight you had with just controlling the game was too much for me to enjoy it. I'd sort of resigned myself to keep an eye on Scourge of War's development, especially the Napoleonic Mod idea that was floated on their forums.

I agree that folks looking to sample Take Command's pleasures should try out Scourge of War: Gettysburg, since it's just a newer, more friendlier and better looking game. Matrix/Slitherine have just taken it under their wing, and have removed the online DRM activation scheme previously used. It now falls under Matrix's offline activation with a key code (AFAIK Matrix, build the key into the install file you download). With future updates requiring the key to apply them.

Command Ops gives you control at the highest level possible, and you plan out the actions, and then let the (very capable) sub-ordinate AI take over. This macro-management is very rewarding, and present a much truer state to the commander in the field, than does the "move every man in the mud" style play of many wargames. I thought Scourge of War gives you command at only a single point of entry in the heirarchy, and you have work with your sub-ordinate branch of the OOB. Whereas Command Ops, allows you to plan out at ALL levels of the OOB if you want. But the actual movement, resting and firing is always under AI control.

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Here are some links for people who want to play.

Downloadable non-DRM version, no ads, just the game from Norbsoft (new company of MadMinute Games guys) $9.99:

http://sites.fastspring.com/norbsoftware/product/scourgeofwar

Community Mod Pack 4 (with necessary patches to base game)

Include a campaign called "Complete Civil War"

Most engagements of war represented in the scenarios included.

http://www.madminutegames.com/MadMinuteBB/viewtopic.php?t=12536&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

First post contains most recent patch available and is updated upon new releases.

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This is only barely on topic, and I'm basically reviving an old thread to post this, but apparently if you dreamed of Civil War lego for your miniature gaming pleasure...

 

http://shop.lego.com/en-CA/The-Lone-Ranger-ByTheme?CMP=EMC-SH2013_04-15_LoneRanger_F_CA&HQS=hero_image&RRID=41250235&RMID=SAH_2013_04_15_LoneRanger_PR_CA

 

Ok, it's actually "Lone Ranger", but... lego gatling on a train.  What else need be said?

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