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Jake

Idle Thumbs 71: Nothing's as Good as Ya Eat 'Em

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Well that was pretty much what I was going to say: a lot of the time it turns tedious because you're constantly dealing with the gross douchebags. Still, not every gaming forum is at the feminism 101 level. Not even explicitly inclusive ones!

You could say that Moxxi's "predatory sexuality" plays to a certain kind of trope, but I think it speaks to her pragmatism more than anything: she'll use any resource she has to get what she wants. In men, that's often called "ambition".

Well, you could try, but unfortunately "pragmatism" is pretty much always part of this trope, because the underlying assumption is that women don't care about sex but some like to use the power it gives them over men. It's usually at this point I share the anecdote about ancient Greek culture basically thinking the opposite: that women were the ones who wanted sex by any means necessary and it was the men who withheld, as an illustration that even the idea that men don't have control over their sex drives is cultural, not biological.

Also, generally when ambitious men use their sexual power to get what they want it plays very differently, so it's not a straight-across equivalence.

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Any time you resort to the fictional context of a piece of art/entertainment to justify problematic aspects, you're in dangerous territory. Indulgent fiction always puts things that are problematic or simply unjustifiable in the real world into a fictional context where they are justifiable; that's why it's indulgent. The creators decided on that context, and it wasn't an arbitrary decision. It's wish fulfillment: I wish it was okay for men to think about women as sex objects, so rather than deal with why I want that and how maybe that's wrong, I'm going to create a world where women want to be seen as sex objects. Ugh.

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I'm not really convinced.

Oh no boobs women are objects ahhhh oh god help me the boobs they burn! BUUUUURN.

Actually, to be honest, some of the Main Dudes in Borderlands were not Dudes at all, IIRC? Like, the scientist lady? I don't remember her being sexualized even a little. Just insane? Man, it's been a long time since I played it. I wish I had a better memory, but basically what I'm trying to say is I definitely didn't come away from Borderlands wanting to see every character in that game IN THE BUFF. Except the berserker. And every other shirtless guy, which was, like, all of them except the army dudes.

Also, I find the fact that women in DayZ can't wear all the armor kind of hilarious. It's clearly a technical constraint, and not a design one, but it results in this sort of "damsel in distress" environment where all the ladies need protected.

I am growing ever tempted to just get ARMA II so I don't have to wait for the standalone version. I really want to play it now. I think I'll probably give in when my paycheck comes in.

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Oh no boobs women are objects ahhhh oh god help me the boobs they burn! BUUUUURN.

Could you try making an actual point here? Are you saying you don't think casual objectification of women is real, or an issue in games, or what?

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Could you try making an actual point here? Are you saying you don't think casual objectification of women is real, or an issue in games, or what?

Well, I was making a stupid reactionary joke. I even originally had a line or two explaining this, but didn't feel it was necessary. If I had an "actual point" it was explained in the following paragraph. Pretty clearly, I think, even reading it now in the context of your abhorrence at my existence.

But seriously, it was just a stupid thing. I was also working under the assumption that Wiki Brown's post was partly in jest.

Now that you've forced me to spend a million years thinking about it, though, I guess I'd expand on the stupid thing by saying that strong female characters and sexualization are not mutually exclusive.

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Well, I was making a stupid reactionary joke. I even originally had a line or two explaining this, but didn't feel it was necessary. If I had an "actual point" it was explained in the following paragraph. Pretty clearly, I think, even reading it now in the context of your abhorrence at my existence.

But seriously, it was just a stupid thing.

Now that you've forced me to spend a million years thinking about it, though, I guess I'd expand on the stupid thing by saying that strong female characters and sexualization are not mutually exclusive.

Your following sentences were a defense of Borderlands in aggregate as a non-misogynist game, which is totally valid, not an explanation for a really tiresome jokey dismissal of having an objection to a picture of a woman that is deliberately cropped to identify her entirely by way of her chest.

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I have no objection with an objection to a picture of a woman that is deliberately cropped to identify her entirely by way of her chest. I have an objection to using that as proof that there are a lack of strong female characters. But as I said, I don't think Wiki Brown was being entirely 100% serious, either, which is the only reason I responded in that way. I might be wrong. Maybe he was being entirely serious. In which case, I've now explained my position as well.

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Oh no boobs women are objects ahhhh oh god help me the boobs they burn! BUUUUURN.

Boobs trying to escape her jacket and no face… along with her hips cocked to the side. A person or group of people made a series of decisions which resulted in a faceless bosom to represent one of their protagonists. It may not be a high crime, but the game is obviously using its female characters for titillation.

Actually, to be honest, some of the Main Dudes in Borderlands were not Dudes at all, IIRC? Like, the scientist lady? I don't remember her being sexualized even a little. Just insane? Man, it's been a long time since I played it. I wish I had a better memory, but basically what I'm trying to say is I definitely didn't come away from Borderlands wanting to see every character in that game IN THE BUFF. Except the berserker. And every other shirtless guy, which was, like, all of them except the army dudes.

I have no idea what you're saying here.

I am growing ever tempted to just get ARMA II so I don't have to wait for the standalone version. I really want to play it now. I think I'll probably give in when my paycheck comes in.

ArmA II is awesome, so you should play it anyway!

edit: didn't notice the intervening posts while I was away from the computer, d'oh.

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I have no objection with an objection to a picture of a woman that is deliberately cropped to identify her entirely by way of her chest. I have an objection to using that as proof that there are a lack of strong female characters. But as I said, I don't think Wiki Brown was being entirely 100% serious, either, which is the only reason I responded in that way. I might be wrong. Maybe he was being entirely serious. In which case, I've now explained my position as well.

I don't think the picture was intended as proof that there are no strong female characters. I've played almost no Borderlands so I've refrained from making any claims about the validity of anyone's opinion one way or the other, but what I think the picture was intended to convey (and I assume this is what Sean was getting at on the cast as well, although it's only an assumption) was that whether or not the game has strong female characters, it is ultimately all filtered through a very strong male gaze. It's pretty easy to just stick a "strong" female character in a game (or a movie or whatever) but it requires more thought to actually present a legitimate female perspective. That's clearly not a problem that is unique to games.

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I have literally zero interesting in Arma proper, unfortunately. ):

Boobs trying to escape her shirt and no face… along with her hips cocked to the side. A person or group of people made a series of decisions which resulted in a faceless bosom to represent one of their protagonists. It may not be a high crime, but the game is obviously using its female characters for titillation.

Right, but it's obvious in an incredibly overt way. The lack of face is what takes it from sexualization for the sake of sexualization to humorous. At least, for me.

I have no idea what you're saying here.

No idea period, or no idea in the context of your statement? That paragraph is in the context of your post responding to the post prior. While "insane" is hardly synonymous with "strong", my point was that the existence of BOOBS (caps means in-your-face) doesn't negate the existence of legit characters.

Not that I'd ever say Borderlands is a good example of a game with legit characters!

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I have literally zero interesting in Arma proper, unfortunately. ):

I could see that. BI's work caters to a very particular set of tastes.

Right, but it's obvious in an incredibly overt way. The lack of face is what takes it from sexualization for the sake of sexualization to humorous. At least, for me.

No idea period, or no idea in the context of your statement? That paragraph is in the context of your post responding to the post prior. While "insane" is hardly synonymous with "strong", my point was that the existence of BOOBS (caps means in-your-face) doesn't negate the existence of legit characters.

I just couldn't parse the language, but I get it now. I think you're right, but I'm also pretty skeptical of Gearbox's intent. Also, like you say, there isn't much characterization of any kind happening in Borderlands, at least from my experience with it. In my opinion, that negates the "strong character" defense.

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I don't think the picture was intended as proof that there are no strong female characters. I've played almost no Borderlands so I've refrained from making any claims about the validity of anyone's opinion one way or the other, but what I think the picture was intended to convey (and I assume this is what Sean was getting at on the cast as well, although it's only an assumption) was that whether or not the game has strong female characters, it is ultimately all filtered through a very strong male gaze. It's pretty easy to just stick a "strong" female character in a game (or a movie or whatever) but it requires more thought to actually present a legitimate female perspective. That's clearly not a problem that is unique to games.

If nothing else, I guess was just confused by the context of the image in relation to the post Wiki Brown responded to. At the time, it definitely seemed to imply that BOOBS means lack of interesting characters.

At any rate, everything you say here is true. I disagree with none of it and, in fact, have frequently come to similar conclusions on my own!

I could see that. BI's work caters to a very particular set of tastes.

To be honest, I don't know why I say I have no interest. On paper, it seems like the kind of game I would love. I think it's just the pure MILITARY factor that turns me off? I very rarely find that theme interesting in any facet. But DayZ appeals to for a variety of reasons. I don't even think I need the zombies. Just a post-apocalyptic setting with similar mechanics would be good for me. I have no idea what I'm actually trying to say. Video games.

I just couldn't parse the language, but I get it now. I think you're right, but I'm also pretty skeptical of Gearbox's intent. Also, like you say, there isn't much characterization of any kind happening in Borderlands, at least from my experience with it. In my opinion, that negates the "strong character" defense.

Heh, fair enough. Can't really disagree with that logic.

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Jake, I got your analogy! It wasn't about the character's actions in the movie it was how it made you feel while watching it. I understand!

Shit I explained the joke.

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I'm not really convinced.

LVz1t.png

This is actually a super interesting example! What it brings to mind right away is how racial humor tends to get interpreted one of two separate ways-- either as making fun of a race or of making fun of racism. Unfortunately, lots of comics who start out on the basis of making jokes about racism end up getting laughs from racists who think they're making racist jokes (see: Chris Rock, Dave Chappelle). In this case, I read this poster as a joke about sexism, and was intended to make fun of the behavior of the (hypothetical) photographer rather than titillate (heehee!) the viewer. The line on this tends to be always really hard to draw, though.

Man... lots of other good discussion here, but Ludum Dare starts in 25 minutes so I'm probably not going to be able to keep up on the discussion for a while. I'm really glad people are talking about this stuff though! :tup:

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In this case, I read this poster as a joke about sexism, and was intended to make fun of the behavior of the (hypothetical) photographer rather than titillate (heehee!) the viewer. The line on this tends to be always really hard to draw, though.

I felt the same way.

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The artist probably thought "Alright everyone in this universe is a dim, ham-fisted gunzerker, so what joke can I do with this flyer? ...oh I'll make the mugshot be of her boobs instead of her face, haha"

It does reflect poorly on him if you pause to think about it. Not in a MONSTROUS way, but in a way that looks really bad in the context of talking about how sexist Gearbox is.

You could dive into how the characters of Borderlands are like blown-out charicatures of it's players and play styles, and what significance that has in this conversation, but hey let's not beat someone up over a background joke, right?

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That poster exists within the same game as ...

The female player character is basically a seductress. Her skills have names like "Diva" and "Hard to Get". Her class is named "Siren." Her butt gets top billing in the game's promotional screenshots and she manages to show off her breasts and blow kisses simultaneously. She is basically one of Kate Beaton's strong female characters.

The 'about sexism, not sexist' interpretation seems extraordinarily charitable.

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The 'about sexism, not sexist' interpretation seems extraordinarily charitable.

I'm a man! If I can't contort the comments of my chromosomal peers into something I can believe is harmless, then lash out at others for overreacting, I don't even want to be on the Internet!

I want to second the suggestion to play Ultima, especially Ultima VII. I am playing it whenever I remember to start Boxer and plug in a mouse, and I really do enjoy the feel of the game.

I am in a writing group and had to write a short story about the word "gypsy" for our next meeting. Somebody chose the musical, and somebody else chose Fleetwood Mac, so I ended up writing about the gypsy from the opening of Ultima IV-VI. Riveting reading, I'm sure.

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That poster exists within the same game as ...

The 'about sexism, not sexist' interpretation seems extraordinarily charitable.

Well, I was responding to that particular thing. It's kind of sloppy thinking to conflate two separate things, particularly since the things you're talking about seem to be entirely relegated to marketing materials. Is it fair to judge a game's merits and demerits based off of marketing materials? Perhaps. But it is a different process, and not necessarily super pertinent.

I'm a man! If I can't contort the comments of my chromosomal peers into something I can believe is harmless, then lash out at others for overreacting, I don't even want to be on the Internet!

I'm arguing on the internet! If I can't misrepresent my opponent's arguments to push an ad hominem attack I don't want to post!

Seriously. What the fuck was that? I'm lashing out at people by suggesting people justify assumptions they seem to be treating as axiomatic? Try to contribute something.

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Is making jokes about how sexism exists sexist?

A little. It trivializes sexist acts by making them seem normative, a commonplace thing you can joke about and everyone gets it, like airplane food or bad drivers.

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A little. It trivializes sexist acts by making them seem normative, a commonplace thing you can joke about and everyone gets it, like airplane food or bad drivers.

Well, but doesn't that mean it also reinforces that sexism exists and raises awareness of the issue?

Then again, airplane food doesn't seem to have improved much by the awareness increase of people joking about it.

Then again then again, I've never actually heard anyone joke about airplane food.

I tend to be super leery about humor being made a target. I think it shuts down discourse in a really creepy way. Dunno.

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Well, but doesn't that mean it also reinforces that sexism exists and raises awareness of the issue?

Then again, airplane food doesn't seem to have improved much by the awareness increase of people joking about it.

Then again then again, I've never actually heard anyone joke about airplane food.

I tend to be super leery about humor being made a target. I think it shuts down discourse in a really creepy way. Dunno.

I'm not saying people are forbidden to make jokes about sexism. I'm saying that care has to be taken to tell jokes about sexism that don't just serve as a blind or even an excuse for sexism's ubiquity and acceptability, however inadvertent. I rarely see would-be comedians and humorists willing to take that care.

I mean, look at that poster. Really, if there is a joke to be had besides a nice set of cartoon breasts and hips, what is that joke? Is it just supposed to be funny that sexism and the male gaze are pervasive enough to make their way onto an unrelated wanted poster? How does that raise awareness? Minstrel acts reinforced that racism existed in the early- and mid-twentieth century, but they weren't exactly an asset to that cause.

In the end, I feel like it's a little cowardly to hold humor as sacrosanct when it is such a powerful normative force in society. "Chill out, it's just a joke" is a nightmarish statement for a lot of people to hear about a lot of things.

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