Ben X

A Song Of Ice And Fire

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I don't think that's the part he was referring to. You're spoiling the fact that that character survives til then!

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I don't think that's the part he was referring to. You're spoiling the fact that that character

survives til then!

It didn't, but the combo with your post now does. What a mess, I'll just spoil the whole thing.

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It didn't, but the combo with your post now does. What a mess, I'll just spoil the whole thing.

Hah, it definitely did. :P

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Today I chucked some men in the ocean for the Drowned God and burned others for R'hllor in the hopes that The Winds of Winter comes-out soon, and is as good as I want it to be, because I am so stoked.

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It's always strange to me when hardcore fans of a tv or book series don't seem to have any faith in the creators and stamp their feet as soon as anything unexpected happens.

I just thought of another example of this. I remember when, very soon after Buffy S5 (spoilers, I won't bother tagging) introduced Dawn abruptly at the end of the first episode, sci-fi magazine SFX complained about it, saying something along the lines of "Buffy just does NOT have a sister!" It's stuck with me all these years because I was so stunned that when something unexpected happened, this staff of supposedly smart, genre-savvy reviewers immediately just assumed that the writers of one of their favourite shows had changed from being forward-planning and continuity-minded to employing utterly lazy and clumsy retcons. What's more, they screamed about it like Internet idiots.

Completely off-topic, but I wanted to rant!

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I agree Ben, having a heavily invested fan base for something must be so stressful for the person/ people creating it. In the down time the fans come up with theories for certain events, or speculate what will happen next. After spending all of that time, that becomes their version, and nothing can live up to that. The story becomes the fan's vision, as opposed that of the person creating it, which is sad. Instead of worrying about telling the story they want to, the creators must have some kind of pressure to cater to the fans, or suffer huge backlash. I remember my reaction to Dawn, I was confused, but I knew it would play out, and in the next episode i got enough to figure out what was going on. At the same, time, in this thread there is an extremely convincing theory that I may be disappointed if it turns out to be false. But at the same time, that isn't the story that GRRM wants to tell, and the one that he has been so far has been exceptional.

On the subject of A Song of Ice and Fire, I started the books near the end of the first season of the HBO series. I had a couple of friends that swore by the books, but the only fantasy book I had been able to get through prior was The Hobbit. Seeing a series where no one was safe, and even the so called "bad" character's had motivations that I could understand and mostly empathize with, I had to dig deeper. I read through the first four books in about as many months, and then held off on A Dance with Dragons for a bit. I never dug past the books though, and just in this thread I have lost 2 hours reading about theories of the parentage of some characters, and recounts of all of the brilliant foreshadowing that GRRM includes. I'm going to have to find the time to reread all of the books again.

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I just went and read one of those pages that Kroms recommended, and I just want to warn people that it is (very well thought-out, convincing but unconfirmed) theories, rather than stuff you might have missed or which is pretty much definite. So if you don't want people working out stuff ahead of time on your behalf, don't read them! The bits about

Dany's visions of a guy with a wolf's head, old man Frey saying "mayhaps", or Varys and Illyrio in the dragon-skull room

are great to have pointed out, though, because they support something you already know. It's a matter of taste, some people like to be part of the community figuring everything out as much and as soon as they can. Personally, I like to wait for the text to reveal something conclusively, so even if everyone else has guessed something three books ago, I might have missed the clues and be all OMFG. After that is when I like to have people point out all the clever hints that I completely missed.

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I've already told Kroms these, but here (for posterity) are my theories about things -- although I still haven't gotten very far into Book 2, and I had these when I was two thirds the way through Book 1:

Jon Snow's mother is...

Ned's late sister, Lyanna. Why? Well he keeps having flashbacks to her on her deathbed. She's clearly on his mind. He goes into a rage when people try and discuss her, which could be his shame. Also, he was pretty understanding when he confronted Cersei about sleeping with Jaime. A bit too understanding, if you ask me.

Jon Arryn was actually killed by...

his crazy wife, Lysa. Why? Because there's been several discussions about where Robin was going to be fostered. Apparently Jon wanted to send him away to Dragonstone, and after he died, Robert wanted to send him to Casterly Rock. Being unable to stand being parted from her only child, she had Arryn killed, and when that wasn't enough, she fled to the safest place in the entire kingdom, The Eyrie.

Some random observations about Book 1:

In the second chapter, the Stark boys stumble across a Direwolf that died during an altercation with...

a stag! The two sigils of House Stark and House Baratheon!

Renly Baratheon was apparently involved in a plot with Loras Tyrell, Knight of the Flowers, to...

try and get Robert to fall in love with Margaery Tyrell -- as they believed she looked a lot like Ned's late sister, and love of Robert's life, Lyanna. The aim of this was apparently to get Cersei out of the way, but it's unclear as to why. Does he know her secret? If so, why not just reveal it?

Varys is in cahoots with...

old forked beard himself, Illyrio. The two apparently wanted to engineer a war between the Starks and the Lannisters... but also the Dothraki, or possibly (specifically) the Targaryen. There's also a hint that Varys may have done away with Jon Arryn. But how and why? And the possibility that he literally does have some knowledge of real magic.

Littlefinger's dagger was...

actually owned by him, not Tyrion. Why part did he play in Bran's attempted assassination? Was he set up, or was it something more sinister?

It's weird to consider the two major events which led to all the troubles faced by the people's of Westeros...

Lysa's letter to her sister, in which she boldly claimed Cersei Lannister was responsible for Arryn's death, despite being completely wrong, led Ned and Catelyn to conclude that Ned had to take Robert's offer to become the hand. If that note hadn't been sent, almost all of the troubles that befall the Starks would have been avoided.

Once they were South, Littlefinger's little lie about his dagger being owned by Tyrion Lannister led to Catelyn taking him hostage... which, coupled with Ned learning the truth about Robert's "children", (probably) prompted Robert's murderers into action.

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You are right on some things, wrong in others. Very interesting observations though! You're more observant than I was/am reading these books. :)

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It's all because Kroms has been going on about all the little details :) I started taking real careful note as I read (which is fun, and it's nice to know it withstands that sort of scrutiny).

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There's a nice little detail you picked-up that should make one early scene in book one slightly sweeter.

Book one:

It's the scene where Loras Tyrell crowns Sansa queen of beauty at the tourney.

Book two:

Loras doesn't recognize Sansa.

Meaning:

Well, Renly was sitting behind her.

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There are quite a few hints throughout the series, but that's the first, albeit most hidden, clue. More here (books 1-3 spoilers).

Hence the lovely sad scene where (book 3):

Jaime asks Loras why join the Kingsguard after Renly's death, and Loras replies that once the sun has set, no candle can replace it.

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To paraphrase Douglas Adams: I love the subtexts in ASOIAF. I like the whooshing sound they make as they fly over my head.

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Read all those articles Kroms linked to, then watch the series, then start re-reading!

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I've watched the series!

Which articles? The ones I read after I finished Book 3? Are there more new ones?

Where do I find the excerpts from Book 6?

Who does

Reek

run off with? SO MANY QUESTIONS

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I've watched the series!

Which articles? The ones I read after I finished Book 3? Are there more new ones?

Where do I find the excerpts from Book 6?

Who does

Reek

run off with? SO MANY QUESTIONS

Found only one of them, but I am sure there is an Arianne out there as well.

http://georgerrmartin.com/if-sample.html

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Just finished Dance with Dragons. Thumbs! WHAT DO I DO NOW?!?!?

Did you ever figure-out the other thing about the "Prince Of" chapter?

That Abel is Mance.

I wish I could remember all the little stuff. Here's a few I'll run off in the few minutes I have (all books spoilers):

- "Aegon Targaryen" is most likely a fake, a Blackfyre (bastard sub-house of Targaryen) sired by Ilyrio Mopatis. This was hinted at many times, including at the House of the Undying. My favourite little hint comes in A Feast for Crows, in a Brienne chapter:

He forged a new sign for the yard, a three-headed dragon of black iron that he hung from a wooden post. The beast was so big it had to be made in a dozen pieces, joined with rope and wire. When the wind blew it would clank and clatter, so the inn became known far and wide as the Clanking Dragon."

"Is the dragon sign still there?" asked Podrick.

"No," said Septon Meribald. "When the smith's son was an old man, a bastard son of the fourth Aegon rose up in rebellion against his trueborn brother and took for his sigil a black dragon. These lands belonged to Lord Darry then, and his lordship was fiercely loyal to the king. The sign of the black iron dragon made him wroth, so he cut down the post, hacked the sign to pieces, and cast them into the river. One of the dragon's heads washed up on the Quiet Isle many years later, though by that time it was red with rust.

Red on black is the sigil of Targaryen; black on red of Blackfyre. It seems a blackened dragon arrived at Westeros, reddened with rust.

It was likely the character was inspired by Perkin Warbeck.

- Jon gets stabbed because he stops flexing his hand. It's too stiff for him to pick-up his sword in time, costing him his life.

- Unless he hasn't died. There are several hints throughout that he's warged into Ghost, including Melisandre's visions in the fire. There's also the theory that Melisandre will resurrect him; after all, Dany does see a blue rose grow from a wall of ice in the House of the Undying.

- Alleras the Sphinx is likely Sarella Sand. He's described as boyish, has a thing for Dornish wine, has dark skin, etc.

- Septa Lemore is probably Tyene Sand's mother.

- Arya is being trained to be a Faceless Man.

- The alchemist who kills Pate at the opening of A Feast for Crows is Jaqen.

- Hodor accidentally eats a member of the Night's Watch.

- The dead Night's Watch members Bran sees One Eye and his pack feasting on are the deserters from Craster's.

- How did Arya figure-out it was the Kindly Man who was sneaking-up on her? She warged into a cat and watched him.

- The parallels between Cersei and Daenerys, up to and including their final walks, were intentional.

- A bunch of characters see or hear Bran in the weirwood. In A Clash of Kings, Jon actually glimpses his face for a second.

- Wex's presence at Winterfell, surviving the sack, was hinted at in A Clash of Kings. The wolves hear someone hiding in the Weirwood tree.

- Rickon is in Skaagos.

- Some of the people Bran sees in his visions are people from Winterfell; one of them, kissing a tall knight (Ser Duncan the Tall; he was mentioned in passing in book three, having died at Summerhall), is the woman who grew-up to be Old Nan.

- The Three Eyed-Crow is a former Targaryen named Bloodraven; you can get some extra details on him from the Dunk and Egg stories.

Gosh there's so much more. It's pretty dense. I can't remember a lot of it right now.

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Like I said, there's more. I think I threw the "mayhaps" one in this thread somewhere. Prophecies are covered here.

Two more:

- Melisandre sees Stannis butchering a stag, as well as Stannis being crushed beneath King's Landing by Renly's army (Renly himself, in armour, at the helm), thinking the two mutually exclusive. Well, you know how those went.

- According to the Ghost of High Heart, Sansa slays a giant in a castle made of snow. There are various theories on that, from Gregor Clegane to LittleFinger, whose grandfather's sigil was a giant (Titan of Braavos). Most believe the scene with Robert at the end of A Storm of Swords (the one that ends with Lysa's death) to be a red herring.

And there's more. It's been over a year since I finished the series, and I've read plenty of good books since, so my memory's dimmed on it, even if my appreciation and love of the series has not.

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