Ben X

A Song Of Ice And Fire

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Really? That's one of the things that's been the same in every map I've seen. I guess you're not a map nerd like me :) Have you seen this one?

http://www.sermounta...k/map/index.php

I haven't. Thanks. And yeah, I never look at the map. Your map nerdiness should prove helpful during A Clash of Kings.

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What thl said. Also, there isn't one, big site. I had to do lots of Googling and my friend, a fellow ASOIAF enthusiast, shared loads of links with me.

Hmm. Now I'm confused as to this whole "sub-layer" you've mentioned. I thought it was some big thing that a website somewhere revealed? Maybe I got the wrong end of the stick.

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Oh man, you'll have to read the books before I get into that. Your understanding is correct, but it goes beyond that a little. There are various essays that explain loads of things. What part of book one are you on?

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The reason I asked is because I assume there must be a bunch of sites that still have their original content written pre-ADWD for me to pore over before I start ADWD. But if you suggest going straight to it... OK!

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Oh man, you'll have to read the books before I get into that. Your understanding is correct, but it goes beyond that a little. There are various essays that explain loads of things. What part of book one are you on?

Catelyn has just reached Moat Cailin. Can you give me a hint? :)

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Haha, on what? There's a bajillion things. Lots of it comes later, though.

Well, OK. The ending of this first book's already been heavily foreshadowed.

That's not much, but anything else would be unfair to you. I don't know, Thunderpeel. Read now, essay later. You've got loads headed your way, about to knock down your door with the force of a khalasar.

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Haha, yes. That's definitely part of it.

There's loads more. I promise, Thunderpeel, that, when you're done, I'll show you loads of things you missed.

But what I mean is stuff, like, say - you've already passed this -

the identity of the two men who Arya caught talking in that secret room full of dragon skulls

, who, if you squinted hard enough, you would have realized were

Ilyrio Mopatis and Varys

.

That's easy mode stuff, though. Most of the more awesome stuff comes later.

My personal favourite was (book 5 spoiler)

delicious Frey pie

, and then maybe (major book 3 spoilers)

Walder Frey's continual "Mayhaps", a reference to the Lord of the Crossing game that means he's lying

.

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Not sure about that, I went back and re-read several times, and I don't recall there being an indication it was

Varys

. In fact I'm pretty sure she describes the hair on his head...?

The other one was very obvious, though :)

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Actually, I guessed that at the time, TP. It's been shown by that point iirc that

Varys utilises a stubbly disguise at times

. I'm looking forward to finishing all the published books then going back and reading these articles, as long as they're not the type that extrapolate out predictions for the upcoming books.

I'm enjoying Storm Of Crows, although it is definitely a change of pace. I like it, though, it makes me feel like more of an active reader again, having to pay attention like I did at the start. Also, there are more than enough familiar characters to keep me going and I'm enjoying the little hints about what the missing characters are up to building my anticipation of getting to see them again. It's always strange to me when hardcore fans of a tv or book series don't seem to have any faith in the creators and stamp their feet as soon as anything unexpected happens.

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Oh, good. I was worried that I had accidentally spoiled something, since (later than you are now, Thunderpeel), near the end of book one,

Varys visits Ned in his dungeon wearing stubble.

Ben, did you read that essay on Jon Snow's mum? :)

Also, here are a few examples of the "hidden" things I love so much, from books two and three, though these aren't my favourites:

- The House of the Undying. Here are some choice quotes from that scene that should make more sense now.

Farther on she came upon a feast of corpses. Savagely slaughtered, the feasters lay strewn across overturned chairs and hacked trestle tables, asprawl in pools of congealing blood. Some had lost limbs, even heads. Savaged limbs clutched bloody cups, wooden spoons, roast fowl, heels of bread. On a throne above them sat a dead man with the head of a wolf. He wore an iron crown and held a leg of lamb in one hand as a king might hold a scepter, and his eyes followed Dany with mute appeal.

And

Beyond loomed a cavernous stone hall, the largest she had seen. The skulls of dead dragons looked down from its walls.Upon a towering barbed throne sat an old man in rich robes, an old man with dark eyes and long silver-gray hair. “Let him be king over charred bones and cooked meat,” he said to a man below him. “Let him be the king of ashes.”

And

The man had her brother’s hair, but he was taller, and his eyes were a dark indigo rather than lilac. “Aegon,” he said to a woman nursing a newborn babe in a great wooden bed. “What better name for a king?”

“Will you make a song for him?” the woman asked.

“He has a song,” the man replied. “He is the prince that was promised, and his is the song of ice and fire.” He looked up when he said it and his eyes met Dany, and it seemed as if he saw her standing there beyond the door. “There must be one more,” he said, though whether he was speaking to her or the woman in bed she could not say. “The dragon has three heads.”

There's more. :)

- "Mayhaps". Walder Frey's warning to Catelyn and Robb. At the beginning of book 2, Bran is playing with Big and Little Walder a game called "Lord of the Crossing." From the ASOIAF Wiki: "The game must be played on some sort of bridge placed over water of some sort. One player stands in the middle of the bridge with a staff. That player is the "lord of the crossing". When another player approaches, the lord of the crossing must say "I am the lord of the crossing, who goes there? The player who approached must then present his reasons for crossing the bridge and why he should be allowed to cross. The lord asks the player questions and makes them swear oaths. The player does not have to respond truthfully to the questions but the oaths are binding unless the player says "Mayhaps" quickly enough that the lord does not notice. Then the player must attempt to knock the lord off the bridge. The lord can knock a player into the water at any time and he was the only one armed with a staff. Only when that is accomplished can the player become lord, but only if you said mayhaps in the game, otherwise it means immediate disqualification."

As you know, Walder Frey kept saying "mayhaps" to Robb and Catelyn when promising them safety underneath his roof, his warning to them that they were in danger here.

- Patchface is interesting, isn't he? Since we're on the topic of the RW, try "Fool's blood, king's blood, blood on the maiden's thigh, but chains for the guests and chains for the bridegroom, aye aye aye."

- So's Melisandre. There's the scene where she burns the three leeches in the fire, condemning all the kings who oppose Stannis, but also stuff like this: “Ser Cortnay will be dead within a day. Melisandre has seen it in the flames of the future...Melisandre saw another day in her flames as well. A morrow when Renly rode out of the south in his green armor to smash my host beneath the walls of King’s Landing. Had I met my brother there, I would have died instead of him.”

- There's loads, loads, loads of stuff I can't get into. It sucks that I'm starting to forget, because it's been over a year since I last read any part of the series, but chalk it up to its strength that I remember anything at all.

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As information is being revealed to me, I'm going back and checking things, and seeing what was true or not and so on. I'm also trying to make sure I completely understand where everyone is, and what they've done... And now I have a question for any Song of Ice and Fire mega-nerds!

Can you explain this to me?

Link: http://scifi.stackex...om/q/24948/4380

It just doesn't seem to make sense, and I'm slowly beginning to wonder if Martin is less into his maps than Tolkien...?

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Well, firstly, GRRM is a big map nerd. I don't think there's a mistake. There is, however, some feinting going on.

Secondly, I don't remember the exact specifics of that battle, but I'm worried any attempt I do at explaining things would spoil things ahead for you. :( What chapter are you on?

Argh, I'll try not to put in spoilers. According to the Wiki of Ice and Fire:

Jaime Lannister is tasked to capture Riverrun, the capital of the riverlands and the seat of House Tully. He first marches east to the Golden Tooth. Commanding some 15,000 men, he easily destroys the defensive forces of 4,000 men Lord Vance has stationed there and make directly for Riverrun, where Edmure Tully hastily assembles his house bannermen.

Edmure Tully was training an army of some 16,000 levies near Riverrun, when Jaime Lannister’s host attacked. Jaime won another easy victory. Edmure was captured along with many of his bannermen and Lord Tytos Blackwood led the survivors into Riverrun as Jaime’s host besieged the castle

Lord Beric Dondarrion's force, sent by Lord Eddard Stark to put a stop to Gregor Clegane and bring him to justice, are ambushed while crossing the Mummer's Ford. They are attacked by the combined force of Gregor and Tywin and are nearly wiped out. Lord Tywin, victorious, closes off the Kingsroad and marches north.

And this part, which I suspect you haven't reached yet:

They then head from the Golden Road to travel across the Trident, conquering several of the Riverland's holdfasts, including Raventree Hall, and heading towards Harrenhal.

Then stuff gets a little more complicated.

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Ok, so I finally finished book one (I really should make more time for reading...!). Although I enjoyed it, I wish I was braced for the fact that there was no resolutions at all. It really doesn't work as a standalone book on any level. (Kroms has told me that you start getting answers at the end of book three -- lawks!)

Still, otherwise a great read. Onto book two!

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I'm 73% through A Dance with Dragons. Looking forward to going back through this thread and reading all those juicy spoilered posts.

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What part, exactly? I think you've passed my favourite ever "hidden" thing. Did you read the chapter entitled "The Prince of [something]*"?

* hidden for spoilers

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What part, exactly? I think you've passed my favourite ever "hidden" thing. Did you read the chapter entitled "The Prince of [something]*"?

* hidden for spoilers

Winterfell

? I think so, yeah. That focuses on

Theon

right?

Oh, and I just read the part where

Barristan learned of the plot to kill Daenerys before she up and fucked up with her dragon.

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Aye. That part. Notice anything about that part?

Say, for example, the identity of a certain bard, or the ingredients of a certain pie?

If you don't figure it out, it's OK! I'll let you know when you're done reading.

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I'll tell you one of them.

Wyman Manderly served Roose Bolton and co. some Frey pie. Rhaegar Frey and some others go missing a few chapters back, Manderly's cooks "pork pie" (of which he lavishly eats), and Wyman drunkely mentions the "Rat cook" at the end, urging the singer to sing about him. To quote A Storm of Swords:

“It was not for murder that the gods cursed him,” Old Nan said, “nor for serving the Andal king his son in a pie. A man has a right to vengeance. But he slew a guest beneath his roof, and that the gods cannot forgive.”

The Rat Cook, as Jojen and Meera tell Bran, kills a prince and feeds him to his father. Wyman Manderly has done the same to a bunch of Freys.

Just one of GRRM's great touches.. As for the other thing, you might figure it out before the book's out, although I certainly didn't. But think really hard.

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