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Jake

Idle Thumbs 69: I Had a Gleam

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Äh, maybe I missed something somewhere, I don't know, but the episodes are in stereo now, no? Not sure about the last one, but at 65 I thought 'Oh, stereo, it sounds good, that's how I imagined it to sound, Jack+e is to the right, Chris in the middle, Sean left - nice, clear, subtle. I hope it is stereo, or I sound like an ass when I say that I like it.'

...oh, okay, now I wanted to check whether it's 'Shean' or 'Sean' via the main site - 'IN STEREO.' - so I guess it is in stereo.

I'm still a bit confused. To sum up all my questions on the matter: Stereo?

It's been slightly stereo for a while. That was a joke about the wild stereo panning right there (brought on by Chris and I sitting on opposite sides of Sean and saying the same thing at the same time).

Ah, of course.

Will the old episodes be remastered to stereo, by the way?

No way. The only reason we can do stereo now (which I think Chris is still playing with to tune) is because through the Kickstarter we were able to buy measurably nicer audio equipment, with all of our mics coming in on separate channels. In the old pre-Kickstarter setup we were recording everyone off an analog board which went in as one unified signal to the computer. So, all the old episodes are already pre-mixed before we even get the audio files into the computer. There's no going back.

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Yep, it's been in stereo ever since the last Progresscast. It's not a very heavy stereo mix, though. A number of people have said they listen to podcasts in the car and they hate stereo mixes that are too noticeable. I tried to find a decent compromise.

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No way. The only reason we can do stereo now (which I think Chris is still playing with to tune) is because through the Kickstarter we were able to buy measurably nicer audio equipment, with all of our mics coming in on separate channels. In the old pre-Kickstarter setup we were recording everyone off an analog board which went in as one unified signal to the computer. So, all the old episodes are already pre-mixed before we even get the audio files into the computer. There's no going back.

I was hoping for some really clumpsy artificial remastering of the old episodes actually. Also, kidding.

You did great job with the implementation. I think the separation between the speakers is pretty much spot on.

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Good to know that I'm not the only one hearing them voices (coming from different positions).

And good work on the mixing, it sounds, as said, great and only in a very subtle way stereo - I guess like most people who were pro trying-stereo back in the day imagined/hoped it would sound.

Btw, was there an IN-YOUR-FACE-rubbing onto the faces of all the 'STEREO??!? This is the dumbest idea ever. WAAAAAAAH!'-people I missed or are we to classy for this here?

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I really like the stereo too. It's a nice, subtle mix that works in both proper stereo and "one-bud-in" mono. Have you done any comparisons on file size? I think I remember you mentioning that as a concern – I assume there wasn't a huge difference?

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If Sean has a hard time with the idea of playing Dota 2 while married, just wait till you have kids buddy. I know I can't play dota 2 anymore and in fact I only play games that have a pause button and no leaver penalties.

Also wouldn't playing with headphones on deal with the voice sound problem?

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Einstein did not write physics papers and theories to be a great physicist or advance the knowledge of mankind or etc. He did because he liked physics, that was his DOTA, t

Bold, friend.

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Child+video games seem to entail two extremes on the spectrum of awesomeness: Not being able to play video games for a long period of time, and being able to introduce your child to video games.

And speaking of the Oculus Rift, none of the cast was excited at all for it. Is it because it's still at an early technological stage, or don't you consider VR, even in an ideal, non-clunky form, something that will let video games be "better" (in whatever way)? I'm super-excited about it, because I'm a big fan of physical immersion (if that's the right term), and I'm drawn to games that puts me in locations that feel real. This is probably the main reason I'm such a big Myst-fan; that kind of immersion is maybe the most important aspect of those games.

Don't you want to be in the game?

vr11.jpg

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And speaking of the Oculus Rift, none of the cast was excited at all for it. Is it because it's still at an early technological stage, or don't you consider VR, even in an ideal, non-clunky form, something that will let video games be "better" (in whatever way)? I'm super-excited about it, because I'm a big fan of physical immersion (if that's the right term), and I'm drawn to games that puts me in locations that feel real. This is probably the main reason I'm such a big Myst-fan; that kind of immersion is maybe the most important aspect of those games.

Don't you want to be in the game?

I find it hard to care for a lot of the same reasons that I don't really care about 3D (or really, IMAX). I just don't see it as solving any of the big obstacles in games these days, any more than higher-resolution textures. Will it make immersive games more immersive? Absolutely, but I don't think the lack of VR goggles are what's holding people back there. Increased fidelity is only great to the the extent of what it's in service of.

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Child+video games seem to entail two extremes on the spectrum of awesomeness: Not being able to play video games for a long period of time, and being able to introduce your child to video games.

And speaking of the Oculus Rift, none of the cast was excited at all for it. Is it because it's still at an early technological stage, or don't you consider VR, even in an ideal, non-clunky form, something that will let video games be "better" (in whatever way)? I'm super-excited about it, because I'm a big fan of physical immersion (if that's the right term), and I'm drawn to games that puts me in locations that feel real. This is probably the main reason I'm such a big Myst-fan; that kind of immersion is maybe the most important aspect of those games.

Don't you want to be in the game?

In general I don't really think escapism should be the principal goal of art/entertainment, and to me VR-type stuff represents an attitude to escapism and immersion that I'm not very much in favor of. The immersive qualities of the creative content itself should be enough, I think. And games are already good at escapism and immersion as it is--I think VR is a distraction from the other areas in which games could be significantly improving.

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And speaking of the Oculus Rift, none of the cast was excited at all for it. Is it because it's still at an early technological stage, or don't you consider VR, even in an ideal, non-clunky form, something that will let video games be "better" (in whatever way)? I'm super-excited about it, because I'm a big fan of physical immersion (if that's the right term), and I'm drawn to games that puts me in locations that feel real. This is probably the main reason I'm such a big Myst-fan; that kind of immersion is maybe the most important aspect of those games.

I posted about this on the Something Awful forum so I will cross-post!

For me part of it is this:

family_3d_glasses-400x265.jpg

... I know that doesn't apply to most "immersive PC gaming" type experiences' date=' because those still seem mostly meant to be played alone in a dark bedroom anyway, but I do think to a certain degree it's just hard to make not-already-enthralled human beings strap wacky hardware to their faces and expect them to like it. It's just not really how we work as a species. We hate that shit. You have to be really stoked on something to let it touch your face. You also, in society, look like a dork when there's weird shit on your face, and people don't like looking like dorks.

I don't think that's the real issue though. I can't speak for Chris (I think in general I'm less averse to things like the Occulus Rift than Chris is, and also I have pretty different opinions from him) but here is my take:

I like immersive feelings in games, but I am most often impressed when I am immersed through what the game is doing, not how the game is doing it. As in, the content of the game, not the tech underpinning it. I have been figuratively transported to another place by a lot of mediums -- including games -- without VR goggles. I'm sure that VR goggles will help people feel more literally transported to a place -- more of your range of vision is filled with game art, your head moves the camera -- but it doesn't make the content you're experiencing inside the goggles any better, and it's the content which gives you the transportive feelings in the first place. That's why it feels like VR goggles will forever be a gimmick, or at best "just another tool in the belt" -- like anything else in any other medium, the content displayed in a VR visor is only going to be as good, as fulfilling and interesting, as the human imagination which is observing it perceives it to be. This one just happens to need to be strapped onto your face.

(That said, as I said on the cast, if someone handed me an Occulus Rift, I would probably disappear into Minecraft for a few days, in a heartbeat.)[/quote']

Edit: Aaand Chris already replied to this thread but it was bumped onto the next page so I didn't see it. Cool moves.

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Valve have been pretty honest about how they are making dota2 as mechanically identical to wc3 dota as they can. There are still a lot of things they can do to introduce people to the game, and I suspect they might just do that instead of changing the mechanics of the game.

Luckily my girlfriend plays video games (but she thinks dota is ridicilous anyway).

All 3D movies I've seen just annoyed the hell out of me, and broke the movie experience completely. Oculus Rift just seem to go in the wrong direction to me? Why would I kickstart some gimmick we dismissed as stupid in the 1990s. I don't want to put anything on my head. I want 3D without any stupid goggles, and amazing surround sound without a headset (or complicated speaker set up).

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Why would I kickstart some gimmick we dismissed as stupid in the 1990s.

Doing it with a 2012 computer as opposed to a 90s computer makes for a pretty huge difference in the experience.

The whole thing is pretty silly, but I've had some interesting VR experiences in more recent times… I think there's something to it. Farting around in Datura with Sony's shitty HMD was nifty.

In practice, I think it gets in the way of playing games that require reflexes and fine control, but it feels cool to relax in a place that's not real for a few minutes. I don't know if that's enough to sustain a market for such a thing, but I would definitely enjoy playing something like Minecraft with it.

Also, just for the hell of it, I'd like to try it with Amnesia (to scare myself) and Magic Carpet (to make myself throw up).

edit: I just remembered that Penumbra (precursor to Amnesia) supports the Novint Falcon haptic controller thing (which I have, so take my opinions on games-related i/o devices with a grain of fucking stupid). Pairing that with the Rift would be incredible.

71weU.jpg

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I was wondering about the discussion about subscriptions, I am not subscribed via itunes, I just download it on my ipod and never open itunes ever. Should I subscribe to idle thumbs and why?

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I disagree with Chris, I think it's incorrect to generalize VR as an unnecessary distraction, it may be near useless for most genres but it could have immense effects on First-Person games. Think about how much more terrifying Amnesia would be wrapped around your face, and if you couldn't jerk your head away from the screen, and how much more horrifying Spec Ops would be.

The PC is more visually immersive than consoles simply because of the decreased distance from your eyes to the screen, and this could be a further step in that direction. Taking the movement away from the mouse and giving it to your head frees the movement of the mouse to be used for something else, maybe swinging your weapon around or something similarly tactile.

The Rift appears to me as something that could be the launching pad for incredible First-Person experiences.

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I disagree with Chris, I think it's incorrect to generalize VR as an unnecessary distraction, it may be near useless for most genres but it could have immense effects on First-Person games. Think about how much more terrifying Amnesia would be wrapped around your face, and if you couldn't jerk your head away from the screen, and how much more horrifying Spec Ops would be.

The PC is more visually immersive than consoles simply because of the decreased distance from your eyes to the screen, and this could be a further step in that direction. Taking the movement away from the mouse and giving it to your head frees the movement of the mouse to be used for something else, maybe swinging your weapon around or something similarly tactile.

The Rift appears to me as something that could be the launching pad for incredible First-Person experiences.

I think you're slightly misinterpreting me. I'm sure the Oculus Rift can make games even more immersive; I'm more saying that I don't think that's necessarily a great goal to be striving for, or a great way to be doing it. Obviously that won't make you agree with me, but I did want to clarify.

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I was wondering about the discussion about subscriptions, I am not subscribed via itunes, I just download it on my ipod and never open itunes ever. Should I subscribe to idle thumbs and why?

There's no advantage other than when you set up a subscription it delivers to you automatically. Some people direct download, some people have some sort of subscription sync set up (through RSS or iTunes or whatever) and other people get it through a third party service or storefront which pulls it from our site. Whatever works for you works for you.

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In general I don't really think escapism should be the principal goal of art/entertainment, and to me VR-type stuff represents an attitude to escapism and immersion that I'm not very much in favor of. The immersive qualities of the creative content itself should be enough, I think. And games are already good at escapism and immersion as it is--I think VR is a distraction from the other areas in which games could be significantly improving.

That's a really interesting line of thought.

I strongly backed up The Oculus Rift about a week after it started: I think it's an area that hasn't been explored very seriously yet and this team, this tech angle and its announced high-profile users represents the best opportunity to do that.

Still, what you said made me realized that the extrapolation of that technology to the whole medium is something I strongly disagree with: I'm not into the social or game everywhere trends, but the prospect of future Video game being even more of a closed, ostracized/ing activity goes against my hope that they can be more than a time cannibalizing activity. It's probably a dystopian view of VR, but having a device that physically and completely occults reality is a bit terrifying in that respect.

To sum up, I want this experience to be made, but I don't want it to be so successful that it takes the medium by storm. That's weird, right?

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I think I agree. I think VR is really interesting because it can potentially give me the sweet, sweet escapism I so desperately crave. If the technology takes off this time (and based on this thing, plus the leaked Xbox 720 thing mentioning VR, there's a possibility it might) it'll probably be used for a lot of highly immersive («immersive» isn't a word?!), highly violent AAA games. I also think less violent, more location-focused games like, yes, Myst games, and stuff like The Witness, Gone Home, Routine, etc. could benefit greatly too. I also agree it's not the most important development in video games, and that the inevitable extreme focus it will be given if enough money is spent could have negative consequences (like 3D TVs and motion-based controls).

If we, Civilization-style, had to select one video game technology to research, VR would not be it. I'm very excited about it, though.

edit: Oh yeah, and if it does take off, we're in for another series of E3 keynotes where everyone's super-excited to be bringing their franchise to this new exciting platform. And also every FPS ever will be remade and rebooted.

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There's no advantage other than when you set up a subscription it delivers to you automatically. Some people direct download, some people have some sort of subscription sync set up (through RSS or iTunes or whatever) and other people get it through a third party service or storefront which pulls it from our site. Whatever works for you works for you.

Oddly enough, the new episodes don't shop up in my itunes untill i follow your link on the blog and then it magically updates. Dammit but i hate itunes.

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I'm generally in agreement with the naysayers, especially regard things like the Wii, Kinect, etc., but I can't help but be a little excited by the idea of trying to crane my neck around a rotted barn in STALKER or something, with the mouse/gun controls decoupled from from where i was looking. I could see it being panic inducing.

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Oddly enough, the new episodes don't shop up in my itunes untill i follow your link on the blog and then it magically updates. Dammit but i hate itunes.

iTunes takes a while to update its pages--it just does an automated crawl every several hours or something. You used to be able to prompt it to manually update your feed after you added a new episode, but they removed that functionality. Sometimes it takes up to a day. Super lame. If you actually subscribe to the feed through iTunes, it should show up as soon as your own application polls the RSS feed, but if you just go to the iTunes page, it can take a while.

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I don't think it's going to broadly affect the way developers make games, what I do think it'll do is function similarly to the Wii: a wave of different games will come out focused around it, some floundering because of unexplored design and some because the hardware doesn't function perfectly yet, but there will be some genuinely great ones. I think it will even work better than the Wii/Kinect/etc did on launch because it's making less of a jump in terms of functionality.

If you don't care for the direction it's going that's fine, but I don't think it'll fail for what it is, and the people that are interested in it will probably wind up getting something out of it in time. It doesn't do anything to advance the areas of game design you're interested in exploring, but I don't think it does anything to detract from them either.

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The problem with the Wii/Kinect is that for its ideal functionality, there is a requirement of physicality beyond "push A, swivel mouse" which Devs can't really standardize. There isn't enough resource to make a good sword fighting game. You can't reasonably expect players to have the kind of fine motor control you'd need.

I could see VR headsets enhancing the things that already work. The looking at the map in you lap in FarCry 2 to realize you're driving off the road, or just looking around an immersive environment in Fallout3/NV, or Skyrim.

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