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Jake

Idle Thumbs 69: I Had a Gleam

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I understood what Chris was saying and was simply adding that society manufactures taboo out of the things created within that internal process. This taboo then gives a lot of (in this case game publishers) pause in outputting something an individual work when it is felt to be taboo. Books and movies have moved beyond that self-censorship and are able to represent one's internal relationship with a myriad of "fucked up" things but games haven't so I, like Chris, was refreshed by The Binding of Issac simply because it eschewed that particular system of censorship.

I wonder if it is part publisher censorship or just... not having the impulse to create things like that. It reminds me of No More Heroes, with the weaboo protagonist, the internal monologue's coming out of the wii-mote and enemies spurting coin fountains rather than blood when you chop them in half. I really appreciated that, but who would have the impulse the create that kind of stuff?

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The talk about which lords are prohibited in DOTA struck me as very Seinfeldian, if you know what I mean. I enjoyed it.

Also, the talk about Binding of Isaac made me wonder if you guys have tried Dungeons of Dredmor. Have you? I don't recall you ever mentioning it on the cast. It's pretty great.

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I'm actually super interested in the argument against Queen of Pain, and if it's all voice, is it okay if you turn the voice off?

While I do generally like the super goofy lines and puns, my learning friend who plays lich definitely got tired of constant ice puns. It almost seems like a built in reason to make you want to play more heroes: you get to hear more voices.

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The puns are the best!

Sand King has some of my favorites, but one of the newer additions, KotL, has some pretty great lines. (Not many puns, though.)

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I'm actually super interested in the argument against Queen of Pain, and if it's all voice, is it okay if you turn the voice off?

I'm guessing it's also the problematic artwork. Looking at QoP's art (not QWOP art) made me feel the same shame/uncomfortableness as American Apparel ads and the response Sarkeesian got to her "Tropes vs. Women in Video Games" kickstarter.

(Cue "Feminism" thread.)

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To be fair, that is her whole schtick... A dominatrix succubus. I mean, what, a succubus should wear a sweater? U:

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There is nothing sexier than a woman with confidence. A dominatrix succubus who could make it work in skinny jeans and a sweater would be pretty hot.

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My job (for example) is one that probably wouldn't leave the world much worse off if it didn't exist; of course that doesn't mean people shouldn't have such jobs. But even within the sphere of how I can spend my free time, I believe there are ways to spend it that are, generally speaking, better than other ways. That's not to say any of those ways are totally right or totally wrong--there's no objective scale. Obviously not every job, hobby, or pursuit can possibly be crucial to the advancement of mankind.

Don't say that Chris, every day you help push us closer to the cultural victory.

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I mean, what, a succubus should wear a sweater? U:

Sure, if it's chilly.

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To be fair, that is her whole schtick... A dominatrix succubus. I mean, what, a succubus should wear a sweater? U:

Yes, the point is that the choice that was made is to depict a dominatrix succubus.

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Yes, the point is that the choice that was made is to depict a dominatrix succubus.

Well, that's part of the problem with the roots of Dota 2 as a fan-made Warcraft III mod, isn't it? I thought the Queen of Pain was a badly disguised expy of Morrigan from Darkstalkers, just like Lina is... well, Lina Inverse from the Slayers anime franchise. Did they really have to keep the derivative cheesecake on board to hold their audience?

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Well, that's part of the problem with the roots of Dota 2 as a fan-made Warcraft III mod, isn't it? I thought the Queen of Pain was a badly disguised expy of Morrigan from Darkstalkers, just like Lina is... well, Lina Inverse from the Slayers anime franchise. Did they really have to keep the derivative cheesecake on board to hold their audience?

Yeah. I mean, ultimately it just points to the thematic and aesthetic lameness of games (and a lot of nerd stuff more broadly). Even outside mods those tropes are incredibly commonplace.

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Yes, the point is that the choice that was made is to depict a dominatrix succubus.

Don't forget, she's royalty too. A royal pain am I right!?

Actually, I wish they had chosen to play up the royal aspect over the succubus aspect, just put her in giant robes with a crown but oh well.

The main reason I asked about if it was the voices, is because female visual character design isn't all that inspired or varied in Dota 2.

Also, I guess she totally says this?

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As a newly married man, who also enjoys dota, I can totally relate to Sean's concerns. Although mine are more typical, not related to the personalities of the dota lords. She does play skyrim though. Which is amazing.

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As a newly married man, who also enjoys dota, I can totally relate to Sean's concerns. Although mine are more typical, not related to the personalities of the dota lords. She does play skyrim though. Which is amazing.

Time to get some couples' Minecraft going :)

(also Sean)

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I didn't expect anything this bottom-scrapingly lame from Valve. Wow!

I recently expressed my surprise elsewhere at how lazy the character design is from a visual and conceptual standpoint. It was pointed out that there's a practical reason for it, because they want Dota players to immediately know what to expect from the characters in the middle of a battle without having to learn a new set of heroes.

But really, that's not a good enough excuse for this stuff. Blizzard character barks are pretty ridiculous, and they can be annoying, but at least there's some wit involved. When I get a new Blizzard game I like to click on everyone a bunch of times to see what goofy shit they're going to say.

Based on what I'm seeing on the Dota 2 wiki, Valve isn't even trying, so why bother with all the voice acting? The characters could just emit some kind of "blip" to let you know that your command was received.

I'm sure it's a different team altogether, but I can't stop saying to myself, "This is the studio that made Portal."

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Well, that's part of the problem with the roots of Dota 2 as a fan-made Warcraft III mod, isn't it? I thought the Queen of Pain was a badly disguised expy of Morrigan from Darkstalkers, just like Lina is... well, Lina Inverse from the Slayers anime franchise. Did they really have to keep the derivative cheesecake on board to hold their audience?

I'm sure it's a different team altogether, but I can't stop saying to myself, "This is the studio that made Portal."

I tried getting into Dota2 and this was exactly the issue that hit me. Some elements, like the unintuitive gameplay and the derivative characters seems contrary to Valve's traditions of quality and player friendliness, which are highly visible in other parts of the game. And while I can't be sure because I don't know the inner workings of Valve's magical Shangri-La, it seems like there are two conflicting internal goals:

1) Create a faithful upgrade of the original Dota - which means keeping all of the derivative chracters, recreating gameplay that was based on rough edges of the Warcraft 3 engine, and generally catering to the hardcore fans.

2) Make it "a Valve game" in all the inclusiveness and polish that it entails - meaning brilliantly informative character design, with friendliness for new players and a strong attempt to encourage good behavior in the community.

In some cases, it's been great: in particular, Valve's player-rating system is fantastic and should be a template for every multiplayer game in the world. It's a brilliant way to harness the community for good while \disincentivizing the terribleness that seems to grow on hardcore game communities like a fungus.

In some cases, it's weird but interesting, like seeing how very derivative characters can still be designed in an excellent, informative fashion (see the Dota2 art bible here http://media.steampowered.com/apps/dota2/workshop/Dota2CharacterArtGuide.pdf).

In many cases, it's very, very conflicted. Nowhere does this come out stronger than a game that goes to such lengths to have tutorials for new players, but still expects actual competitive players to rely on complex and largely untutorialized mechanics like Orb Walking and Creep Denying (both legacies of Warcraft's engine).

It really feels like there must be two teams in Valve that are constantly fighting over Dota2's development. And to do that, they may have to decide whether they want to make a game that welcomes new players, or one that gives the hardcore fans what they want.

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It really feels like there must be two teams in Valve that are constantly fighting over Dota2's development. And to do that, they may have to decide whether they want to make a game that welcomes new players, or one that gives the hardcore fans what they want.

This is a really fantastic explanation. Such a weird project, and I wonder what they're going to do with it once they've added in all the original content.

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I didn't expect anything this bottom-scrapingly lame from Valve. Wow!

I find it more lame because it's a kill response, most likely for killing a lady, playing off the suffer pun. But also, she's a queen so she wouldn't want suffrage for anyone, unless the Kingdom of Pain is a constitutional monarchy. Save that line for the Presidentrix of Pain.

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But even within the sphere of how I can spend my free time, I believe there are ways to spend it that are, generally speaking, better than other ways. That's not to say any of those ways are totally right or totally wrong--there's no objective scale. Obviously not every job, hobby, or pursuit can possibly be crucial to the advancement of mankind. I don't mean that personal satisfaction is worthless, or shouldn't be a big consideration in how we spend our lives, but it's certainly not the only thing, at least not in my worldview.

I think this is a really interesting topic. How much do we decide the value of a hobby, and how much of it is decided by society? If someone devotes their time to chess, is that somehow more valueable than someone that plays DOTA? How much of the value is determinded by the game itsef? Just like the discussion about Young Adult fiction and its value compared to other types of fiction, does a game genre matter? This is all similar to the whole Rock Band vs learning to play an instrument conversation as well. I know I'm just asking a lot of questions here, but I'd be interested to hear what others have to say.

Just to put in my own two cents really quickly, I think some hobbies probably are more valuable than others, especially when viewed in the context of a results-oriented society that we live in, but I think that takes the conversation in a different direction entirely. I also think the game itself makes a lot of difference. Games like Minecraft or Civilization seem to operate on a slightly different level than something like Modern Warfare. All that said, there's still something to be said for the value of enjoyment and relaxation, but it seems like there might be a line between enjoyment and over indulgement.

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Äh, maybe I missed something somewhere, I don't know, but the episodes are in stereo now, no? Not sure about the last one, but at 65 I thought 'Oh, stereo, it sounds good, that's how I imagined it to sound, Jack+e is to the right, Chris in the middle, Sean left - nice, clear, subtle. I hope it is stereo, or I sound like an ass when I say that I like it.'

...oh, okay, now I wanted to check whether it's 'Shean' or 'Sean' via the main site - 'IN STEREO.' - so I guess it is in stereo.

I'm still a bit confused. To sum up all my questions on the matter: Stereo?

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Special guest Kangaroo Jack. He took the right channel and he's not giving it back.

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Ah, of course.

Will the old episodes be remastered to stereo, by the way?

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