Idle Thumbs 67: Dot Gobbler

[subbes]

The Pac Man cartoon included songs. I know Scott has two of them as mp3s that he got from a great in-depth blog about this sort of thing, but can't recall the URL (hnnngh).

[Bernbaum]

Agree completely with Chris and Sean on Achievements.

When used properly, they're a great carrot-on-a-stick to continue playing. Perfect example: Geometry Wars RE2. Getting that rub against the walls achievement (finally) was so damn satisfying.

As for story-driven games, where they're these intrusive little blips that pop up after major story beats, they're incredibly obxnoxious.

[Colourful Stuff]

Agree completely with Chris and Sean on Achievements.

When used properly, they're a great carrot-on-a-stick to continue playing. Perfect example: Geometry Wars RE2. Getting that rub against the walls achievement (finally) was so damn satisfying.

As for story-driven games, where they're these intrusive little blips that pop up after major story beats, they're incredibly obxnoxious.

I completely agree. I defended achievements before I switched from 360 to PC because the achievement chime can occasionally evoke a slight tingle in the loins. Divorced from that console and a number that gradually increases it is easy for me to see how misplaced the system is in the majority of games. The current console generation is arguably characterised by the linear-narrative-corridor style of game, exactly the sort of game that is at odds with achievement. Every time I see an achievement pop up I can't help but imagine J Allard's head popping into the corner of the screen, toasty style, and tersely reminding me that I'm playing a video game.

[Bernbaum]

I completely agree. I defended achievements before I switched from 360 to PC because the achievement chime can occasionally evoke a slight tingle in the loins. Divorced from that console and a number that gradually increases it is easy for me to see how misplaced the system is in the majority of games. The current console generation is arguably characterised by the linear-narrative-corridor style of game, exactly the sort of game that is at odds with achievement. Every time I see an achievement pop up I can't help but imagine J Allard's head popping into the corner of the screen, toasty style, and tersely reminding me that I'm playing a video game.

Achievements kill the sense of exploration and those special moments when you find secrets in games

There was neat arcade racer for PC in the 90's called Big Red Racing. The game featured tracks in vast expansive environments but racers were expected to stick to the track. With most racers, I'd usually fuck around a bit - go down the track the wrong way, go off course and explore. With BRR, there was this massive expansive field which was basically just a repeating grass green texture. It was fun to just go blitzing off into the wild and seeing how fast the racers could go when not limited to the racetrack. One time, I was blazing away through this (apparently infinite) field and then all of a sudden, a massive mountain appears on the horizon. I targeted my car towards it at a speed much faster than what was attainable on-track, rapidly climbed the mountain and then flew through the air for minutes. The game had a wild punkish aesthetic to it, and the physics (rudimentary by today's standards) in the game as my racer went flying through the air as the ground was left behind was unexpected and hilarious. It was amazing and exhilarating and obviously put there by a designer for that purpose. A great moment as I felt I was one of the few to discover it.

The same thing in a game these days would be listed in the achievement list, most players would do it and do it once only, and no sense of awe or surprise would be experienced by anyone.

[CaptainFish]

How do you guys feel about the player knowing more than the protagonist in how it's handled in the LucasArts adventures? Pretty much all the classic ones would cut to the villain's actions, and you even mentioned that part of Full Throttle in a previous cast.

[Colourful Stuff]

Achievements kill the sense of exploration and those special moments when you find secrets in games

There was neat arcade racer for PC in the 90's called Big Red Racing. The game featured tracks in vast expansive environments but racers were expected to stick to the track. With most racers, I'd usually fuck around a bit - go down the track the wrong way, go off course and explore. With BRR, there was this massive expansive field which was basically just a repeating grass green texture. It was fun to just go blitzing off into the wild and seeing how fast the racers could go when not limited to the racetrack. One time, I was blazing away through this (apparently infinite) field and then all of a sudden, a massive mountain appears on the horizon. I targeted my car towards it at a speed much faster than what was attainable on-track, rapidly climbed the mountain and then flew through the air for minutes. The game had a wild punkish aesthetic to it, and the physics (rudimentary by today's standards) in the game as my racer went flying through the air as the ground was left behind was unexpected and hilarious. It was amazing and exhilarating and obviously put there by a designer for that purpose. A great moment as I felt I was one of the few to discover it.

The same thing in a game these days would be listed in the achievement list, most players would do it and do it once only, and no sense of awe or surprise would be experienced by anyone.

I was thinking about achievements playing DayZ a few weeks ago. I have never murdered in that game, but I have had a few opportunities to do so. Imagine if killing a player was tied to an achievement. The decision to pull the trigger would be influence by an extraneous system, not the multitude of meaningful factors that actually influenced my decision to stay my hand.

Am I starving? Am I thirsty? Will a zombie hear my shot? Will a player hear my shot? Can I even make the shot from this range or will the bullet drop impotently to the ground? Are they alone? Do they have anything I want? Do I want to ruin their day? 20 points?

[Dan]

It was interesting to hear Sean talk about Lee's dialogue options. I feel like I've been trained in most games to think they are alternate options. It pulls me out of the experience a little since I stop and think what my character should do.

With The Walking Dead I didn't do that at all. When I had to make the first decision the timed nature didn't give me time to stop and think. Since I made the decision to say what I said, I internally decided that Lee had gone into a fugue state when the event happened and had no idea if he did it or not. I know now that wasn't the exact intent, but it was interesting that I treated it differently than other games. Great job.

Also, that dot gobbler conversation was hilarious.

[Squid Division]

My timed-dialogue choices are always panic/first reaction ones. Basically as soon as the timer starts going down, whichever answer my eye passes over first that sounds pretty much like what I think Lee in this instance would say, I choose. So I don't even know what the other options are for most of those. I don't really have a problem with that either - they really help lend a sense of urgency to something that should. For instance, at the beginning of Episode 2 when

you cut the guy's leg off, my girlfriend was screaming at me to cut the chain instead, but I had already started on his leg, so I had to keep going. I don't know if you could even hit the chain, but it really helped Lee be even more sympathetic. Lee was getting yelled at because I screwed up. So often games don't let you live with your mistakes in any meaningful way. Lately it seems like if you screw up and the game acknowledges it, you're likely to just miss out on whatever content they had lined up.

[Forbin]

Listening to the episode, I just did a Google Image Search for "Dot Gobbler". This thread is linked to as number 1 and 2 in my results, with the rest just being pictures of Pacman.

[a purple future]

A kind of funny side-note to the achievement discussion is that one of the only games I've ever cared about getting achievements is also one that doesn't tell you when you've earned them: The Binding of Isaac. You have to close the game and re-open it to see your achievements.

According to Steam I have 100 hours in that damn game and only 66/84 achievements. That's a Persona 4 worth of Isaac and I'm still not done.

[Twig]

A kind of funny side-note to the achievement discussion is that one of the only games I've ever cared about getting achievements is also one that doesn't tell you when you've earned them: The Binding of Isaac. You have to close the game and re-open it to see your achievements.

It's also bugged and straight up won't award 'em sometimes. C'est la vie.

[a purple future]

It's also bugged and straight up won't award 'em sometimes. C'est la vie.

Yeah I've definitely earned some I shouldn't have and haven't earned some I should...

worst case scenario is I'm playing a game I love so...

[Squid Division]

For me, achievements are good when they provide you with something else to do in a game you love otherwise. I got all the achievements in Fallout 3 and Assassin's Creed 2 because I loved being in the world and just screwing around in the game. Achievements set a goal for the thing you'd be doing anyway.

[feelthedarkness]

Dramatic Irony:

Lemmings?

QWOP? (I mean, I KNOW what running looks like. I have no idea what he's doing.)

I think in games it would be very challenging, as it could be perceived as frustrating design. I can't help but think of Police Quest 3, when you need to find the pattern in the crimes and it's obviously a pentagram, and I plotted a star over and over trying to make him see it. Obviously that was a dumb buggy game, but I could see that being the experience.

Achievements:

I mostly agree with you dudes. If they have to be tied to the narrative I can't believe they don't time the popups to be on a 3 second delay from actual moments.

I think they can be useful as gentle gameplay nudges, and I've heard it can be frustrating when people won't play your game right. I often at achievements to see if I haven't tried something.

[Sno]

I really loath the kind of achievements that require actions outside of the scope of the intended gameplay.

Dead Space infamously had an achievement that encourages people to play the entire game using only the plasma cutter.

So great, they're encouraging people to have a less than ideal experience, smart move guys.

[holdontoyourbutts]

There is not a .jpg in the world I more want to get on my hard drive right now than a sticker-less version of that Dot Gobbler cover.

[BigJKO]

Quick Photoshop:

Couldn't figure out what the hell it said behind the Musicland sticker, "Only two players"? And the fonts are not accurate, but it's what I had installed..

[mikemariano]

I really loath the kind of achievements that require actions outside of the scope of the intended gameplay.

Dead Space infamously had an achievement that encourages people to play the entire game using only the plasma cutter.

So great, they're encouraging people to have a less than ideal experience, smart move guys.

No way, Sno; these achievements are the best kind!

I had a lot of fun with "Zombie Chopper", "Just One Bullet", and "Little Rocket Man" in Half-Life 2 and its Episodes. They are stunts that ask you to get creative in the way you approach the game.

They are also unabashedly meaningless and exist only for their own sake. If you don't have fun trying to achieve them, it doesn't mean a thing if you decide to ignore them.

[holdontoyourbutts]

Quick Photoshop:

Couldn't figure out what the hell it said behind the Musicland sticker, "Only two players"? And the fonts are not accurate, but it's what I had installed..

fantastic

[Sno]

No way, Sno; these achievements are the best kind!

I had a lot of fun with "Zombie Chopper", "Just One Bullet", and "Little Rocket Man" in Half-Life 2 and its Episodes. They are stunts that ask you to get creative in the way you approach the game.

They are also unabashedly meaningless and exist only for their own sake. If you don't have fun trying to achieve them, it doesn't mean a thing if you decide to ignore them.

I prefer when achievements are kind of an honest record of my experiences with a game, instead of a bunch of one-off gimmicks.

You know, like beating the Halo games on legendary or something. It's not an exciting achievement in and of itself, but it's denoting an exciting experience.

[juv3nal]

re: the fez clock....you can disconnect from xbox live and futz with your system clock to get it to the right time.

ah nevermind I was a filthy thread skimmer.

[Twig]

I prefer when achievements are kind of an honest record of my experiences with a game, instead of a bunch of one-off gimmicks.

You know, like beating the Halo games on legendary or something. It's not an exciting achievement in and of itself, but it's denoting an exciting experience.

Man, those are the lamest of lames! "Here's an achievement for doing something you'd probably do anyway." BORING. I'm with Mike. The best ones are those that ask you to do something you wouldn't normally do.

[youmeyou]

I am with Mike as well. Without the "Little Rocket Man" achievement in Half-Life 2 there wouldn't have been the awesome blog "Trey's Travels:" http://treygnome.blogspot.com/

I think when you have an achievement like that one (which essentially requires you to carry a garden gnome you find in the beginning of HL2: Ep2 to the last part where you launch him into space) that encourages you to go back and play a game you've already finished as an almost entirely different experience, that's where achievements really shine. Because that's the dev's saying, ok guy, you did it, you finished the game, now let's just have some fun with the mechanics of the game. Because the mechanics of a game can be far, far more complex than its main story arc, and engineering some way to explore them outside of the story is a valid goal, I think.

[Raavenlight]

Wasn't there a game where you were some world leader's pet on the eve of a world war? Or did I just confabulate that?

Are you thinking of The Cat and the Coup? http://store.steampowered.com/app/95700/

[gregbrown]

Are you thinking of The Cat and the Coup? http://store.steampo....com/app/95700/

YES!!! Thank you! I was going crazy entering all possible pets and world wars into google. It exhibits the same sort of indirect control.